Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam,

Surely the club was only a short distance from Commercial Road

Having been to "Berner Street" a few times - once with your fair self - it still seems a bit off the beaten track. That might just be my imagination, of course. That notwithstanding, it was in 1888 the site of a busy club, which is one of the reasons I find it a bit puzzling that Liz was there at all.

[Observer]

The fact is (as has been pointed out several times) until the Stride murder Jack had encountered no resistance from his victims, that is, until it was too late for the victims to resist. It's possible Liz Stride was not comfortable with her "companion", and resisted his advances, hence Schwartz witnessing the little altercation he later recounted to the police. In effect, with regard to the Stride murder, Jack was showing a side to his character which was not required when dealing with his previous victims

Regards
Observer

[Jeff Leahy]

Well yes to some extent I agree

The women took Jack to a quite place.

"FAncy a quick one" "2D" "OK" "follow me"

Its something he might of done often and only on a few ocassions where circumstance correct for the attack.

This might not only include the environment but the killer state of mind.

So yes in that respect Strides attack would appear to be slightly different?

Its why I've often postulated that Dutfeild Yard was more personal in some way to the killer. A location possibly closer to home, one where he felt someone was intruding on his patch.. But that is just of course my opinion and to some extent guess work.

Happy Easter

Yours Jeff

[Wickerman]

You party pooper you!

[lynn cates]

for sale

Hello GUT.

". . . OR there was no Jack"

I'll buy that. How much? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

Sorry cd I took that one "as read".

[c.d.]

I find it hard to believe that a killer who operated so stealthily for other murders suddenly kills all but in front of witnesses.

So either he wasn't Jack OR Liz wasn't killed by Jack, OR there was no Jack.

You pays your money take your pick.

What happened to the option that Jack killed Liz but Jack wasn't the B.S. man?

c.d.

[GUT]

I find it hard to believe that a killer who operated so stealthily for other murders suddenly kills all but in front of witnesses.

So either he wasn't Jack OR Liz wasn't killed by Jack, OR there was no Jack.

You pays your money take your pick.

[moonbegger]

Wouldnt that conclude that he 'DID' scan the kill zones at the other murder scenes?

We just don't know that. We don't even know how many other murder scenes there were for certain.

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff ,

I think we must conclude that if Jack and Annie showed up in the back of 29 Hanbury Street only to be greeted by Richardson fixing his lock , the murder would not have commenced there and then .. likewise if Jack and Polly had Paul and Crossmere loitering around them , I'm sure she would have not been found in Bucks row .. (ect ect )

The Thing is Jeff , There was no guarantees as far as , who was going to walk around the corner or into the back yard at any given moment , the Killer had no control over this particular element of his crime , but he could control who was around him at the moment of killing , after that initial few seconds he was in the hands of fortune and luck ..

So why , when it comes to Berner Street would this predetermined killer not give a rats ass about who was in his immediate area ? surely he would take a cursory glance to check on his precarious surroundings .. much the same way as a desperate man taking a pee in a public street today
No one wants to get caught for either offence .

And yes I know " Predetermined " is not a view held by many , but even a spur of the moment killer would be a little cautious as to who was over his shoulder .

cheers , moonbegger

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Caz ,



Another thing Caz , The very fact that BSM did not scan his potential kill zone for the possibility of interfering witnesses has got to be detrimental to its inclusion as a Ripper murder , if committed by BSM .

moonbegger

Wouldnt that conclude that he 'DID' scan the kill zones at the other murder scenes?

We just don't know that. We don't even know how many other murder scenes there were for certain.

Yours Jeff

[moonbegger]

Hello Caz ,

Also, there is no evidence that BSM knew anyone was watching until he had already begun to tackle Stride. Schwartz claimed to be behind BSM as they both walked towards the club from the direction of Commercial Road. In fact, if BSM shouted "Lipski!" at Schwartz, that would appear to be the moment of realisation that his 'assault' on Stride (or whatever we wish to call it) was being witnessed. If he was the ripper, he may have felt committed by then, at least to the kill.

Another thing Caz , The very fact that BSM did not scan his potential kill zone for the possibility of interfering witnesses has got to be detrimental to its inclusion as a Ripper murder , if committed by BSM .

moonbegger

[Scott Nelson]

Principally Dr. Blackwell's opinion.

[Jeff Leahy]

not [/I]a 'fact' that different knives were used. It could have been the same knife.
X

Yep, theres no evidence a different knife was used. If I remember correctly its a confusion in the court records. The short bladed knife being a reference to another knife found close to the murder scene which was subsequently found not to be connected to the Stride Murder.

Happy Easter

Yours Jeff

[caz]

it's easy to rule B.S man out of being the Ripper, on the basis the Ripper would never have been that wreckless or oblivious to being caught. but then again, you could argue that a killer who kills under people's bedrooms, kills near watchmen, kills on routes regularly patrolled by police (In at least one case coming within seconds of being seen by an oncoming witness) - is very much wreckless and oblivious.

I was thinking the same thing, J.

Also, there is no evidence that BSM knew anyone was watching until he had already begun to tackle Stride. Schwartz claimed to be behind BSM as they both walked towards the club from the direction of Commercial Road. In fact, if BSM shouted "Lipski!" at Schwartz, that would appear to be the moment of realisation that his 'assault' on Stride (or whatever we wish to call it) was being witnessed. If he was the ripper, he may have felt committed by then, at least to the kill.

i do fully understand your point though, that B.S man's behaviour seems to fly in the face of what we would 'expect' from the ripper, and it does present a problem. as does the fact a different knife was used on Stride to that used on Eddowes.

Ooh, don't let Tom see you saying this. It is not a 'fact' that different knives were used. It could have been the same knife.

My previous post listed potential "pick-up points" for the other victims, rather than the venues of the murders. The "Canonical Four" I mentioned died in close proximity to main thoroughfares, where I presume they were solicited before being escorted the short distance to the places where they fell (or escorted the killer themselves). The same could be said of Martha Tabram.

In contrast, Stride seems to have stayed put in the relatively obscure Berner Street, following BS man's assault upon her. Not the sort of place I'd expect an opportunist killer to hang out on the off-chance of finding a victim.

Hi Sam,

Surely the club was only a short distance from Commercial Road, along which I dare say many a man would have picked up a prostitute on a Saturday night. I don't see a problem with either punters, prostitutes, or the ripper himself popping down the side streets on the off-chance of a more private encounter - or even perceived prostitutes if Stride wasn't actively soliciting that night. After all, there was this active club on Berner, and a chance to use their outdoor loos if nothing else. Jack had the same lavatorial needs as anyone else. He could have come out of the club privy to see Stride standing there, and bingo.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jeff Leahy]

It might help your argument if Brown had noticed the woman wearing a flower.
Stride certainly was wearing one before the Brown incident at the Bricklayers Arms, and after, when in Berner St.

I've never been certain that Browns POV would have given him sight of the flower even if she was wearing it?

Remember the woman had her back to the wall and the man he saw was facing the woman in front of her.

Given the angle its doubtful Brown could have seen the flower as his veiw was blocked.

Trust you well

Yours Jeff