Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[lynn cates]

Caps R Us

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Quite. Perhaps the same with the "peak"?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon ,

Or maybe , BSM's argument was with the man in the shadows , and Liz was trying to protecting him ?

moonbegger

It's possible BS-man may have seen another man in the shadows behind her, which prompted the physical exchange, yes.

If PC Smith wrongly described the hat parcel man was wearing, that it was a "hard felt hat" (Billycock style), not a deerstalker, then suddenly the description of BS-man is similar enough to the Bricklayer man.
The agony of it all....

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

I think there was a similar situation with the Long sighting?

cheers.
LC

Yes, a deerstalker described as a "felt hat". Were they ever made of felt?
And in Stride's case "hard felt"?
I'm having difficulty in finding a 19th century deerstalker made of felt, let alone hard felt.

That aside, if you see a man wearing a deerstalker (as per Wm. Smith), how can you tell if it is a "hard felt" hat just by looking at it?

Something is amiss here...

[lynn cates]

shadowy

Hello MB. Are you suggesting that a supposedly impaired BSM noticed the man in the shadows but not Liz who was in full view?

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Thats how I interpret the gesture, something like "your coming with me", and as she resisted, he pushed her down or she lost her balance.

Hello Jon ,

Or maybe , BSM's argument was with the man in the shadows , and Liz was trying to protecting him ?

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

statement

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

They would likely take a statement from anyone they considered a viable witness.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello CD. Thanks. Permit me to answer both questions at once.

Here are Swanson's words:

"I understand the Inspector to suggest that Schwartz' man need not have been the murderer. True only 15 minutes elapsed between 12.45 when Schwartz saw the man & 1.0 when the woman was found murdered on the same spot. But the suggestion is that Schwartz' man may have left her, she being a prostitute then accosted or was accosted by another man, & there was time enough for this to take place & for this other man to murder her before 1.0." ["Ultimate" pp. 123 & 4]

I beg to call your attention to the following:

1. It is not Swanson's opinion at all, but a suggestion by an inspector (Reid?).

2. Swanson is dealing ONLY with the time factor--it was physically possible for BSM to leave, Liz collect herself, find another man and for him to kill her.

But for some reason--unknown to me--his thinking here has been put for police theory. It was not.

Cheers.
LC

Thanks for this Lynn, I did a search for this yesterday but was unable to find it.

One thing that this conversation has made me consider is how aware of Fanny's testimony Swanson was?

Of course one must presume the police must have taken a statement from Fanny which has since been lost.

Bearing in mind Goldsteins statement

But if one considers her testimony there really are only two very short windows

The one between Schwartz sighting and Fanny coming to her door

And the one between Fanny going inside and Deimschutz finding the body.

Very tight windows indeed.

And as Fanny did not see Stride the most probable is the one between Schwartz and Fanny arriving at her door

Many thanks for info and thought

Yours jeff

[lynn cates]

Long

Hello Jon. Thanks.

I think there was a similar situation with the Long sighting?

cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Yes, I feel the tension. However, I don't think I can navigate without the inquest material.

Cheers.
LC

The police had released an official description of PC Smith's suspect on Oct. 1st, carried by nine newspapers, and again on the 3rd it was carried by two. In each case the hat was "hard felt hat".
The Inquest testimony on the 5th (published on the 6th), is the first time we read about a deerstalker.
Yet, official police reports & releases after the 6th continue to read "hard felt hat".
Strange.

[lynn cates]

navigation

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Yes, I feel the tension. However, I don't think I can navigate without the inquest material.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

muddled

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Muddled? Yes, indeed.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Yes. So he merely explains the suggestions of others.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"Less than 30 minutes previous Stride had been seen on the street with "Parcel-man", where did he go?"

Home, perhaps?

Cheers.
LC

I know we always refer to the Coroner's Inquest testimony, when available, as our principal source, but maybe what is said in these Inquests is not always correct?

Yes, I know the witness was a policeman, but I am intrigued as to why the first published 'Wanted' description in the press following the murder described 'Parcel-man' as wearing a "hard felt hat", as opposed to a deerstalker.

On October 1st, the Star published this description:

"Aged about 28, and in height 5ft. 8in. or thereabouts; complexion dark, and wearing a black diagonal coat and hard felt hat, collar and tie. He was of respectable appearance, and was carrying a newspaper parcel."


On October 19th, in his well known report Insp. Swanson also described PC Smith's suspect as wearing a "hard felt hat", not a deerstalker.


On November 12th, the Daily Telegraph published an official Police release describing suspects concerned in the Berner St./Mitre Square murders. PC Smith's suspect is as follows:

"At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at one a.m., same date, in Berner-street - A man, aged 28, height 5ft 8in, complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper."

Wouldn't you think that if the police wanted help from the citizenry that they would use specific terminology as opposed to generic?
How often is a deerstalker described as a 'hard felt hat'? Today, they are made from a wide range of materials, but not in the 19th century.

The Billycock hat, Derby, Bowler, are all known as "hard felt hats".
The man seen with Stride at the Bricklayers Arms wore a Billycock hat, ie; a hard felt hat.

PC Smith gave his evidence on October 5th, so anything in the press prior to that date would be of interest as to whether his suspect is described as wearing a deerstalker or a hard felt hat.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Hello DLDW. Thanks. Always good to try various scenarios.

I was referring to Liz. One would expect a "Hmmpff. A fine help you were."

Cheers.
LC

Understandably so. Then perhaps the offer of cachous and the murder. I tend to agree that if the BSM thing occured then he killed her. Such little time to work with. Unless there was someone else unknown around. Hence the scenario. And no mutilations also. Cut and run. Not the sort of thing one wants to be involved in if they are "JTR". I think it satisfies everything. Not convinced on Stride one way or the other. It's muddled too much. Two things I do find compelling to "JTR" are 1 cut to the throat and positioning in relation to the enviroment. And as far as the topic of the thread is concerned, equally unhelpful.

[Wickerman]

Hello CD. Thanks.

Not sure why the Inspector made that suggestion. Perhaps he noted--as I do--all the anomalies in Israel's story. Swanson seems to be explaining the suggestion to those above him.

Yes Lynn.
I think that Swanson is making this report for "upstairs", to be digested by Anderson, Warren & Mathews. In which case it would be risky for him to plant suggestions with his superiors which were of little consequence.