Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[Wickerman]

We also don't know if it was his intention to kill that night. Something might have been triggered in him when he encountered Stride (which I think was the case).

c.d.

Not forgetting that Stride had been seen twice that night, both times with a man. So it is not unreasonable to conclude she was also with a man inside Dutfields Yard. Schwartz is the only witness we have to this incident and his attention was solely taken up with the actions of BS-man.
It is quite possible he never noticed another man in the shadows of the yard by the gate.

If her killer was 'Jack', he didn't meet her there, they went to Dutfields Yard together, in my opinion.

[Damaso Marte]

The killer could have had non-solicitation reasons to be near Berner street. Kosminsky and Lechmere, to name just two suspects, either lived near the Stride murder scene or had family members who lived nearby.

[Sam Flynn]

Compared to the other Ripper murder sites, Mitre Square was also "out of the way" for Jack

My previous post listed potential "pick-up points" for the other victims, rather than the venues of the murders. The "Canonical Four" I mentioned died in close proximity to main thoroughfares, where I presume they were solicited before being escorted the short distance to the places where they fell (or escorted the killer themselves). The same could be said of Martha Tabram.

In contrast, Stride seems to have stayed put in the relatively obscure Berner Street, following BS man's assault upon her. Not the sort of place I'd expect an opportunist killer to hang out on the off-chance of finding a victim.

[Dr. John Watson]

I can see Jack hanging around Whitechapel Road (Nichols), Commercial Street (Chapman/Kelly) and Aldgate High St/Liverpool St (Eddowes), but Berner Street seems somehow too "out of the way", unless he knew Stride would be thereabouts. That's why I sense that, in her case, the killer had a more specific motive than the opportunistic murder and mutilation of a stranger.

Compared to the other Ripper murder sites, Mitre Square was also "out of the way" for Jack, which actually strengthens the case for the murders being connected. And it's not unheard of for a "good Samaritan" to rescue a female from danger, only to turn around and victimize her himself. The idea of a "third man" chasing away Broad Shoulders and smooth-talking Stride into Dutfield's Yard is certainly worth considering.

John

[c.d.]

Hello Sam,

Stride would not necessarily have had to have been actively soliciting to be approached by Jack and then all bets are off. Also, a place that has more potential customers is also going to have more competition for those customers.

Jack might have concluded that places where there were more prostitutes might also be places where there was a greater police presence.

We also don't know if it was his intention to kill that night. Something might have been triggered in him when he encountered Stride (which I think was the case).

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello CD

I think that other man would have been a client and that he was Jack. If she were a street veteran, and the whole B.S. man encounter was just a par for the course harassment, I see no reason for her to move to another spot.

For me at least, the dingy gateway to Dutfield's Yard seems the oddest place for Stride to hang out, if she'd wanted to attract clients.

I can see Jack hanging around Whitechapel Road (Nichols), Commercial Street (Chapman/Kelly) and Aldgate High St/Liverpool St (Eddowes), but Berner Street seems somehow too "out of the way", unless he knew Stride would be thereabouts. That's why I sense that, in her case, the killer had a more specific motive than the opportunistic murder and mutilation of a stranger.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,

What motive are you assigning to this third man who was her killer?

c.d.

I think that scenario only works, or works best, if this 3rd man was 'Jack'.
Swanson also believed there was sufficient time to include the appearance of another man. But, he may have been there all along.

I think most people who object to Stride being a Ripper victim do so because they object to BSman being 'Jack'.
The above scenario allows for Stride to remain a Ripper victim while absolving BSman of culpability.

[c.d.]

Hello Jon,

What motive are you assigning to this third man who was her killer?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Assuming this unknown 3rd man existed, it could be said he took advantage of the fracas taking place. Any witnesses would naturally blame this drunk (BSman), and the killer's true presence would remain unknown.

Which is precisely what happened.

If this 3rd man had been out in the open, in the street, he could have been mentioned by witnesses. As he wasn't, I see him being in the yard with Stride already, somewhere in the shadows.

The scenario might be that Stride was already with someone in the entryway to Dutfields Yard (why else would she be there?).
As the staggering drunk suddenly appeared on the scene, the killer stepped back into the shadows.
Stride is assaulted, she falls, witnessed by Schwartz walking quickly passed, and when she gains her composure the killer pulls her into the shadows and kills her.
Result, everyone saw BSman assault her, but no-one saw her true killer.

[c.d.]

Your point is a good one. If the B.S. man feared that Schwartz ran off to get a policeman, then anyone watching what took place would have probably had the same thought.

Two possible explanations:

1. Her killer did not see what took place between Stride and the B.S. man.

2. He (Jack) was so aroused by what he saw that he decided to take his chances and went ahead with the murder.

c.d.

[The Good Michael]

CD,

The problem (a problem?) we encounter with a 2nd man being the killer is that he most probably would have seen/heard what Schwartz had and that maybe there was trouble brewing, so how would he have thought that he would have the time to do a proper job? it could be, as you've said, that this kind of roughing up of a prostitute was par for the course and the killer thought nothing of it, but I would put him at a level of caution just a but higher than that.

Cheers,

Mike

[c.d.]

Hello Sam,

I think that other man would have been a client and that he was Jack. If she were a street veteran, and the whole B.S. man encounter was just a par for the course harassment, I see no reason for her to move to another spot.

Yes, the timing for another man being her killer is cutting it close (no pun intended) but no matter how much you tweak the time, there is enough time for another killer. Again, the police considered this a possibility.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Excellent points, CD, and one in particular triggered some new thoughts. Well, new to me:

2. The cachous - The cachous (which were just wrapped in paper) would have had to have survived Liz being thrown to the ground in which case you would expect that she put out her hands to break her fall. Neither did they scatter if she pushed herself upright by putting her weight on her hands as she got up. Also, if she were dragged to where she was killed and she attempted to fight off the B.S. man, they survived that as well. To me, that indicates that she took them out later after he had left.

... and as (or before) she went to eat one, another man came up to her and cut her throat? Within minutes of Schwartz's sighting, and at practically the same spot?

(I think you may well be right about when she took out the cachous, by the way, and your reasons for coming to that conclusion are sound.)

[c.d.]

If anyone wants to believe that the B.S. man killed Stride, they have to come up with an explanation for the following:

1. Why he would murder Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. It would be reasonable for him to assume that Schwartz ran off to find the nearest policeman and the only thing that the B.S. man had done at that point was to throw a woman to the ground. Hardly a hanging offense.

2. The cachous - The cachous (which were just wrapped in paper) would have had to have survived Liz being thrown to the ground in which case you would expect that she put out her hands to break her fall. Neither did they scatter if she pushed herself upright by putting her weight on her hands as she got up. Also, if she were dragged to where she was killed and she attempted to fight off the B.S. man, they survived that as well. To me, that indicates that she took them out later after he had left.

3. Why no one (post Schwartz) heard any argument or cry for help.

4. Why Liz had no marks on her face as if slapped around in an argument.

5. Why her clothes showed no sign that she had struggled with her killer.

6. Why she was not cut anywhere else on her body which would indicate anger and passion in the attack.

To me, everything indicates that Liz was caught off guard when she was killed. I don't see how that would be possible if the B.S. man was her killer.

I have no reason to disbelieve Schwartz but simply accept that he reported what he thought he saw taking into account the added burden of having to use an interpreter. Some posters have stated that the idea of another man (her killer) appearing after the B.S. man left as being way out there. I don't see how that can be so if the police at the time were willing to consider it as a possibility. I think the B.S. man left the scene and Jack came on stage shortly after.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

coda

Hello Jon. Your second sentence just about says it all.

Cheers.
LC