Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[c.d.]

Even if we set aside the question of Schwartz's veracity, we still don't know whether he witnessed an "attack." That seems to be the term that we have assigned to it. We also don't know the intention of the B.S. man. Was it to hurt Liz or did he simply want her to move from her location? Did he really push her or did she fall? Could he have suddenly let go while pulling her which led to her fall? I think we tend to view what happened in the worst possible light. And that might not necessarily be correct.

Food for thought.

c.d.

[Jeff Leahy]

I don't get the relevance Jeff , how would that make him less cautious as to who was over his shoulder , or who was loitering in his kill zone ?

moonbegger

Hi Moonbegger

I was suggesting that the location used by Stride was more personal to the killer, as its my personal opinion that Jck lived in Dutfeild Yard as a child and was living only yards away around the corner at the time of the murder. But thats just personal opinion.

But on your wider point, I certainly agree that the attack witnessed by schwartz was different to the other murders, in that the killer met his victims at a different location and they took him somewhere quiet.

In my opinion the only other different attack was Nichols. I beleive she expected the gates at Bucks Row to be open and when they were NOT she was struck suddenly and with violence (Hence the whispering reported by Harriot Lilly)

But on an even more Macro point, I'm not certain we should expect serial killers to use the exact same MO all the time. All of Jacks crimes show variation and thats what we should expect.

Its an idea that became unpolular in Ripperology, I beleive, largely because of Patricia Corwall's clumsy use of tying up any murder she could find with Walter Sickert.

However I've spent some time researching a serial killer called Harold Jones. He killed two girls in wales 1921. Released from prison 1941.

The year before Harold killed the two girls in 1920. A woman who's house backed into the same ally as Jones, in the same small Welsh village was attacked from behind and stabbed. She didn't she her assailent, but author Neil Melkin makes the case that even though the MO is totally different to the tow girls murder (Who were strangled) It must have been Jones who did the attack using a very different MO.

As the Village was so small and schizophrenic Psycopaths so rare. I'm fast coming around to the possibility that such killers can vary their MO considerably

Trust that clarifys a little

Off to see Wedding Present at a record stall in Cardiff

Jeff

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

I've got one.

Let's say "JTR" was leading Stride into the Dutfields. BSM saw them and he accosted Stride for being about to do the business or whatever his problem was. Jack remains in the darkness of the yard whilst BSM pushes her about and Schwartz passes and etc. He then seizes the opportunity afforded him to kill her while she is distracted from being attacked. He doesn't mutilate because of the ruckus that had just occured and lingering is too risky. He doesn't leave her alive because it is good policy. One less person, if not the only one, who could put you there at that time. Does that satiate everyone? Ha ha ha.

[lynn cates]

no place like it

Hello Jon.

"Less than 30 minutes previous Stride had been seen on the street with "Parcel-man", where did he go?"

Home, perhaps?

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'day Jon

We are left with two other possibilities:
1 - Another person approached her from the street and killed her swiftly or,
2 - Her killer was already in Dutfields Yard with her, unseen by Schwartz.

I have no problems with that idea, in fact I personally think that is what happened.

Less than 30 minutes previous Stride had been seen on the street with "Parcel-man", where did he go?

That is a good question.

[Wickerman]

I offer this only to suggest that while Stride's murder may fit someone's idea of a non-Ripper killing, the murder site does comply with Jack's usual work environment, with perhaps a little more risk involved. And for what it's worth, if Stride was a Ripper victim, I believe he came along after BS Man left, talked her into the yard and killed her - probably all in a matter of 5-7 minutes.

John

Some astute observations with regard to locations, yet in all the other instances the killer did not allow himself to be seen assaulting his victim.
So yes, I agree, that if Stride was a Ripper victim, BS-man was not her killer.

Options are few for a likely perpetrator. If the story given by Schwartz is correct and "Pipeman" took off behind Schwartz then he was likely not her killer either.
We are left with two other possibilities:
1 - Another person approached her from the street and killed her swiftly or,
2 - Her killer was already in Dutfields Yard with her, unseen by Schwartz.

Less than 30 minutes previous Stride had been seen on the street with "Parcel-man", where did he go?

[GUT]

IF Jack committed all these murders one thing we know is that acting where he could be seen was not a concern for him.

[Dr. John Watson]

The idea of killing someone in a narrow court yard, with occupied dwellings on one side and a crowded club room on the other, within full view of a public street only a few feet away, would seem more the impulsive act of a beginner than the work of an experienced serial killer. Still, our Jackie seemed quite content with taking his fun where he found it, however risky it might be.

With one exception, all Ripper murders were committed in public places, in areas where the risk of discovery "in the act" was fairly high. For example:

Tabram: Stairway landing, inside occupied apartment building.

Nichols: Public street in front of occupied dwelling.

Chapman: Back yard at rear of occupied dwelling.

Stride: Side yard off public street, next to occupied buildings.

Eddowes: Public square, next to occupied dwellings.

At any of these sites, someone could easily have stepped onto the street, looked out the window, came down the stairs, opened the door, or turned the corner (as PC Watkins did at Mitre Square), surprising the killer. And yet, in each case he managed to do his thing and disappear without a trace.

The lone exception, Kelly, was murdered inside her rented room, behind a locked door. The room, however, was located in an occupied dwelling, directly beneath another tenant's room and a few feet from another occupied dwelling off the same entry way - so still a bit risky for Jack, especially considering the increased numbers of police and frightened women in the area.

I offer this only to suggest that while Stride's murder may fit someone's idea of a non-Ripper killing, the murder site does comply with Jack's usual work environment, with perhaps a little more risk involved. And for what it's worth, if Stride was a Ripper victim, I believe he came along after BS Man left, talked her into the yard and killed her - probably all in a matter of 5-7 minutes.

John

[moonbegger]

As I said, Perhaps he lived there as a child?

"Unidentified murders in London are rare and the Jack the ripper crimes are not within that catigory"

I don't get the relevance Jeff , how would that make him less cautious as to who was over his shoulder , or who was loitering in his kill zone ?

moonbegger

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff ,

I think we must conclude that if Jack and Annie showed up in the back of 29 Hanbury Street only to be greeted by Richardson fixing his lock , the murder would not have commenced there and then .. likewise if Jack and Polly had Paul and Crossmere loitering around them , I'm sure she would have not been found in Bucks row .. (ect ect )

The Thing is Jeff , There was no guarantees as far as , who was going to walk around the corner or into the back yard at any given moment , the Killer had no control over this particular element of his crime , but he could control who was around him at the moment of killing , after that initial few seconds he was in the hands of fortune and luck ..

So why , when it comes to Berner Street would this predetermined killer not give a rats ass about who was in his immediate area ? surely he would take a cursory glance to check on his precarious surroundings .. much the same way as a desperate man taking a pee in a public street today
No one wants to get caught for either offence .

And yes I know " Predetermined " is not a view held by many , but even a spur of the moment killer would be a little cautious as to who was over his shoulder .

cheers , moonbegger

As I said, Perhaps he lived there as a child?

"Unidentified murders in London are rare and the Jack the ripper crimes are not within that catigory"

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Aye, that I am.

Cheers.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

I truly don't know Gareth, perhaps if there were other places, and a woman had been killed there, someone would have asked, why here and not over at Berner St.?

I'm sure nobody would have thought of Berner Street, had not Stride been killed there.

[Wickerman]

Possibly, Jon... but were there not other places in Whitechapel where they could have done that?

I truly don't know Gareth, perhaps if there were other places, and a woman had been killed there, someone would have asked, why here and not over at Berner St.?

[Sam Flynn]

Not so puzzling if she was with someone and they were enjoying the singalong coming from the windows.

Possibly, Jon... but were there not other places in Whitechapel where they could have done that? Perhaps her killer was a klezmer aficionado

[Wickerman]

.... it was in 1888 the site of a busy club, which is one of the reasons I find it a bit puzzling that Liz was there at all.

Maybe puzzling, if she was in the dark yard alone.
Not so puzzling if she was with someone and they were enjoying the singalong coming from the windows.