Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I’m going to do a similar thing, based on my preferred view (for now). Just to see where it gets me and if it would differ much from your findings. I don’t expect them to be much different, but rather that they will be quite close.

Seeing that it was only about 50 m/164 feet from Berner Street to the corner of Batty Street, where doctor Blackwell lived, I presume that PC 426 H was already at his door or even inside to wait for Johnston when Smith reached the top of Berner Street.

Another thing that I would have different than you is the route Smith took in Berner Street. Because to me the evidence reads as if he first went down the street on the east side (I presume without checking Hampshire Court) and then turned back on the west side, when he saw Stride & companion on the opposite side of the street, perhaps opposite number 34 or 32, and before he was going to go into those “courts which led into Backchurch-lane” (presuming they were Batty’s Gardens and Sander Street). In other words, my view is that he was passing Fanny’s house or about to pass her house when he saw the couple on the other side of the street.


I'm also going with the "Eagle Hurries" version, which estimated PC Lamb's arrival at the scene as being 1:05:50. Then at, say, 1:06:00 Lamb sends PC 426 H for the doctor; then, at 1:07:27 PC 426 H knocks on the door at the doctor’s and Smith reaches the top of Berner Street. And, finally, at 1:08:39 Smith arrives in Dutfield’s Yard (I have him walk at a speed of 1.42 mph from the top of Berner directly to the Yard).

12:39:57: PC Smith at the top of Berner Street on his previous patrol
12:42:15: PC Smith passes Fanny's House (and sees the couple on opposite side of the street)

Then, before Fanny emerges for her vigil, Smith, in going up on Berner, checks both Batty’s Gardens ‘up & down’ and Sander Street ‘up & down’ before he turns right on Commercial Road. That would be 397 m/1303 feet to cover before Fanny could come to her door without seeing Smith. At 2.7 mph it would take Smith 5 minutes and 29 seconds to cover that distance.

12:47:44: Fanny emerges to start her vigil.
12:55:44: Fanny goes inside (using 8 minutes for an estimated 10 minutes)

Fanny sees Goldstein pass and look up at the club during her vigil. The window between Fanny going back inside and Diemshutz arriving is small, but it could still contain the Schwartz event and/or the murder.

It’s also possible that the Schwartz event took place while Smith was going down Batty’s Gardens. Back & forth would be about 167 m/555 feet and would have taken Smith 2 minutes and 20 seconds to cover.

So, Smith in this model would have turned into Batty’s Gardens at 12:42:25 and would resurface from it at 1:44:45.

If BS man turned into Berner Street just as Smith turned into Batty’s Gardens, then he would have reached Stride after some 78 seconds (walking at 3.1 mph) and there would be another minute for BS, Schwartz and Pipeman to clear the area before Smith would resurface from Batty’s Gardens. That might just seem possible, although the window is tight and maybe too tight. After all, BS man has to either leave Berner Street himself before Smith resurfaces or he has to sneak away from Dutfield’s Yard while Smith is patrolling up Berner Street or after turning into Sander Street.

Having now concluded this ‘model’, I’m not really sure what to think of it in terms of offering possibilities for the Schwartz event and/or the murder to take place. The possibilities are there, but are tight, especially for the Schwartz event to take place before Fanny's vigil. But that might a good conclusion, too.

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Nice. There are all sorts of variations, and I can see your reasoning with regards to the Direction of PC Smith's patrol. I think it's always a good idea to cover as many variations as possible since we can't know for sure which is the right one, if it turns out that regardless of version certain ideas remain viable, while others are more dependant upon the version chosen, then we at least can start to assess relative probabilities.

I've made some updates to the timetable calculator excel book. Hopefully that link works. I'm not sure how clear my notes are to others, but basically you can now work both forwards and backwards in time. Also, while in the previous book you had to do everything "in order", you can now tell it to do a calculation from a specific point, and not just from the previous time in the row above. (Yah, I'm sure that's clear as mud). Hopefully it makes more sense by looking at the information I've left in it as an example.

Anyway, on the Table page, it creates 2 tables. The one on the left shows the information in the order you did things on the WorkArea page. The one on the right should order things chronologically.

I think it's fairly versatile and reasonably flexible and may be of interest to some. It may turn out that I should have made the workspace bigger (more rows) as some timelines can get pretty complicated. That remains to be seen.

- Jeff

[FrankO]

I've had a quick go at looking at PC Smith's last patrol by Fanny's house, and arrival at the scene. To do this, I'm working on the basis that PC Lamb is already at the scene, and the other PC was sent to fetch the doctor and exited Berner's Street by the time PC Smith gets to the top of Berner Street. I've set that PC to a "Hurries" speed of 4.11, so half way between a walk and a run. I think there's a good argument to be made for that PC to have gotten further than just exiting Berner's Street, so I added an additional 20 feet to use for now as a minimum.

Hi Jeff,

I’m going to do a similar thing, based on my preferred view (for now). Just to see where it gets me and if it would differ much from your findings. I don’t expect them to be much different, but rather that they will be quite close.

Seeing that it was only about 50 m/164 feet from Berner Street to the corner of Batty Street, where doctor Blackwell lived, I presume that PC 426 H was already at his door or even inside to wait for Johnston when Smith reached the top of Berner Street.

Another thing that I would have different than you is the route Smith took in Berner Street. Because to me the evidence reads as if he first went down the street on the east side (I presume without checking Hampshire Court) and then turned back on the west side, when he saw Stride & companion on the opposite side of the street, perhaps opposite number 34 or 32, and before he was going to go into those “courts which led into Backchurch-lane” (presuming they were Batty’s Gardens and Sander Street). In other words, my view is that he was passing Fanny’s house or about to pass her house when he saw the couple on the other side of the street.

Once I get that time, I back up in time by 27.5 minutes, his average patrol time, to determine the time he was last at the top of Berner Street. Going with a patrol speed of 2.7 mph, and presuming that he heads south on Berner, then does both sides of Sander, then continues south on Berner to shortly before Dutsfield yard (Fanny's house), I estimate the time he passed Fanny's. If Fanny correctly identified the footsteps she heard as PC Smith's, and comes out to start her vigil shortly afterwards (say 3 minutes, which also gives PC Smith time to complete his patrol of Berner Street and exit onto Commercial), then we could estimate her arrival time. She estimated she was on her doorstep for 10 minutes, which translates to just under 8 minutes, but for now I'll use 8 minutes for her time on the doorstep.

I'm also going with the "Eagle Hurries" version, which estimated PC Lamb's arrival at the scene as being 1:05:50. Then at, say, 1:06:00 Lamb sends PC 426 H for the doctor; then, at 1:07:27 PC 426 H knocks on the door at the doctor’s and Smith reaches the top of Berner Street. And, finally, at 1:08:39 Smith arrives in Dutfield’s Yard (I have him walk at a speed of 1.42 mph from the top of Berner directly to the Yard).

12:39:57: PC Smith at the top of Berner Street on his previous patrol
12:42:15: PC Smith passes Fanny's House (and sees the couple on opposite side of the street)

Then, before Fanny emerges for her vigil, Smith, in going up on Berner, checks both Batty’s Gardens ‘up & down’ and Sander Street ‘up & down’ before he turns right on Commercial Road. That would be 397 m/1303 feet to cover before Fanny could come to her door without seeing Smith. At 2.7 mph it would take Smith 5 minutes and 29 seconds to cover that distance.

12:47:44: Fanny emerges to start her vigil.
12:55:44: Fanny goes inside (using 8 minutes for an estimated 10 minutes)

Fanny sees Goldstein pass and look up at the club during her vigil. The window between Fanny going back inside and Diemshutz arriving is small, but it could still contain the Schwartz event and/or the murder.

It’s also possible that the Schwartz event took place while Smith was going down Batty’s Gardens. Back & forth would be about 167 m/555 feet and would have taken Smith 2 minutes and 20 seconds to cover.

So, Smith in this model would have turned into Batty’s Gardens at 12:42:25 and would resurface from it at 1:44:45.

If BS man turned into Berner Street just as Smith turned into Batty’s Gardens, then he would have reached Stride after some 78 seconds (walking at 3.1 mph) and there would be another minute for BS, Schwartz and Pipeman to clear the area before Smith would resurface from Batty’s Gardens. That might just seem possible, although the window is tight and maybe too tight. After all, BS man has to either leave Berner Street himself before Smith resurfaces or he has to sneak away from Dutfield’s Yard while Smith is patrolling up Berner Street or after turning into Sander Street.

Having now concluded this ‘model’, I’m not really sure what to think of it in terms of offering possibilities for the Schwartz event and/or the murder to take place. The possibilities are there, but are tight, especially for the Schwartz event to take place before Fanny's vigil. But that might a good conclusion, too.

All the best,
Frank

[JeffHamm]

Hmmm,

One thing that just occurred to me. It is obvious the Schwartz event cannot occur while PC Smith is patrolling Berner Street. So for the model that places the Schwartz event prior to Fanny's vigil, the start of her vigil would have be more than 2 minutes after PC Smith exits Berner Street.

The estimation for the time of PC Smith passing Fanny's is around 12:42:27, and that's about 3m 3 seconds into his patrol of the street, which based upon 2.7 mph, would require about 5 minutes (as I'm including Sander Street), so that would suggest he exits around 12:44:27, making the minimum time for Schwartz and Pipeman to have left the scene be around 12:46:27. But if we think B.S. kills Stride, we have to allow for B.S. to commit the murder and leave as well, which I'll just say is another minute, meaning Fanny doesn't emerge until closer to 12:47:27. Using the 8 minutes as her vigil time (as the average time for a 10 minute duration estimation), means she goes in at 12:55:27, and Deimschutz's arrival at 12:59:48 is pretty much her 4 minute delay estimation. Given she's likely to have overestimated the interval, then shifting her vigil start time a bit later would shrink that interval.

So, the estimations are not ruling out a pre-vigil Schwartz event, though the window for it is probably smaller than a post-vigil murder. As such, of the two models, the post-vigil is probably the safer bet, but neither can be ruled out.

I know it's looking like everything has to occur "just so", but that is the nature of more and more detailed models. The more calculations we conduct, none of which individually can be said to be too far off the mark, then the more time gets accounted for. Ideally, of course, one is trying to fill in the details for all of the time in question, but if one can do that, then of course it will look like "it had to have happened just so" - but that's sort of the idea - to work out what happened and when?

Also, even if we get a model of the events that appear to be "just so", we also have to remind ourselves that all of these times, and time windows, are not intended as exact fixed values, but the "windows" of the events can shrink and expand a bit, but where one shrinks another is likely to expand. The idea is to see if we can produce a sort of "prototype" model, where variations on it more or less adhere to the model times, and the actual truth is probably one of those variations, but our prototype is a good enough representation that we're not making any major errors.

There are some things I don't think we can work out very precisely. Lave's time in the yard, for example. We know it is probably before Fanny's vigil, but there is too little information to really pin-point it by trying to tie it into other events. It's probably also prior to PC Smith's patrol, so the lack of Stride's body being in the ally at that time doesn't preclude a pre-vigil murder/Schwartz event.

The young couple Fanny sees, and who may have been at the location after Stride was found murdered, would have to have arrived after the Schwartz event if it occurred pre-vigil, and it seems hard to work them in if the Schwartz event is post-vigil, so their presence may argue for a pre-vigil time, changing the assessment as to which model may fit better.

Also, a pre-vigil Schwartz event would fit better with Schwartz's police statement that the events occurred around 12:45, although post-vigil isn't out of the question either (just means Schwartz's estimation of the time was off, at least when compared to the Leman Street Police Station clock, which he doesn't have access to).

Anyway, I'm not really sure I have a strong opinion one way or the other at the moment, and I'm just sort of pondering things here. Given the oversights I've made in some of the calculations (and sorry for the number of corrections I've had to post. I often do these things when I have a few minutes to spare, and given the complications we're dealing with, I really should have more than a few minutes to ensure that I'm not making a data entry error), I think I'm going to have another go at my workbook. I've got a few ideas as to how to make it a bit more versatile, while at the same time making it a bit more robust against "user error" (i.e. I need to Jeff-proof it).

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I believe that in the above post, where I've bolded a "1", your intention was to say "12" rather than "1".

ha ha! I had just noticed that as well and was fixing it up at the time you posted. But thanks for pointing that out.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Ooops! I really shouldn't try to do these sorts of things in a rush.

I added, rather than subtracted, PC Smith's Patrol time, which then messes up the other time estimations. So the times in the "Prior" section should read:

Prior to the above:
12:39:24 : PC Smith at the top of Berner Street on his previous patrol
12:42:27 : PC Smith passes Fanny's House
12:45:46 : Fanny emerges to start her vigil.
12:53:46 : Fanny goes inside (using 8 minutes for an estimated 10 minutes)

So that would suggest PC Smith's clock is closer to 7 or so minutes out of sync with the Leman Street Police Station clock. We don't know what clock PC Smith is using, of course, and given the number of clocks involved, it becomes increasingly likely that one at least will be out by a larger amount, so if during these recreations, we really only end up with one clock on the larger end of the expected range that is not a real problem. I don't think 7 minutes is particularly large myself, but opinions will vary.

One thing that looks interesting, now that I think I've got these bits working properly, is that 12:45 comes up fairly often with regards to Fanny's vigil, and we're in that zone of times. It also reduces the delays between her going inside and Deimschutz's arrival closer to her estimated 4 minutes, and while the longer delay isn't unacceptable, it is on the longer side.

With Deimschutz's arrival being estimated to be 12:59:48, there's 6m and 2s in which the Schwartz event could occur, and it only requires about 2 m, so there's more than sufficient time for that to occur post-vigil. Also, of course, if we increase the delay between PC Smith's patrol and Fanny coming out, there's also time for it to occur just prior to her going outside too.

- Jeff

[Lewis C]

Hi Frank,

I've had a quick go at looking at PC Smith's last patrol by Fanny's house, and arrival at the scene. To do this, I'm working on the basis that PC Lamb is already at the scene, and the other PC was sent to fetch the doctor and exited Berner's Street by the time PC Smith gets to the top of Berner Street. I've set that PC to a "Hurries" speed of 4.11, so half way between a walk and a run. I think there's a good argument to be made for that PC to have gotten further than just exiting Berner's Street, so I added an additional 20 feet to use for now as a minimum.

Once I get that time, I back up in time by 27.5 minutes, his average patrol time, to determine the time he was last at the top of Berner Street. Going with a patrol speed of 2.7 mph, and presuming that he heads south on Berner, then does both sides of Sander, then continues south on Berner to shortly before Dutsfield yard (Fanny's house), I estimate the time he passed Fanny's. If Fanny correctly identified the footsteps she heard as PC Smith's, and comes out to start her vigil shortly afterwards (say 3 minutes, which also gives PC Smith time to complete his patrol of Berner Street and exit onto Commercial), then we could estimate her arrival time. She estimated she was on her doorstep for 10 minutes, which translates to just under 8 minutes, but for now I'll use 8 minutes for her time on the doorstep.

To get his arrival time at the scene, I use the time he reached the top of Berner Street, and have him speed up to a walk (3.1 mph) to head directly to the crowd (so he doesn't do Sander Street on that stretch).

To do these calculations, I'm going with the "Eagle Hurries" version, which estimated PC Lamb's arrival at the scene as being 1:05:50.
That gives us:
1:06:54: PC has exited Berners and is 20 feet along towards the Doctors House/PC Smith reaches the top of Berner Street
1:07:08: PC Smith arrives at the Scene

Prior to the above:
1:34:24: PC Smith at the top of Berner Street on his previous patrol
1:37:27: PC Smith passes Fanny's House
1:40:27: Fanny emerges to start her vigil.
1:48:27: Fanny goes inside (using 8 minutes for an estimated 10 minutes)

Keeping in mind these times are in reference to the clock at the Leman Street Police Station, and not the clock that PC Smith used to determine the time, the differences are pretty minimal, and suggest PC Smith's clock and the Leman Street Police Station clock differ in the vicinity of 5 minutes (with PC Smith's clock being the one reading the earlier time, so PC Smith's 1:30-1:35 would be the LSPS clock reading 1:35-1:40 type thing).

That means, somewhere between 1:40:27 and 1:48:27 we have Goldstein walk down Berner Street.

And there is the time period between 1:48:27 and the estimated Deimschutz arrival (12:59:48), so 11m 21s in which the Schwartz event (2 minutes) could still occur.

Of course, if Fanny was mistaken about who produced the footsteps, then those footsteps occur after PC Smith's patrol, so that would suggest Fanny emerged even later, shifting her vigil window. But since we have to allow for her to emerge and not see who produced the footsteps (so roughly 3 minutes), then the whole Schwartz event (2 minutes) could have been happening just before she emerged anyway (it's tight, but it can't be ruled out).

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I believe that in the above post, where I've bolded a "1", your intention was to say "12" rather than "1".

[JeffHamm]

Indeed, Jeff, it might be interesting to get a better picture of the intervals between different witnesses (how long they approximately were & who might fit in there), rather than try to pinpoint the timings of each witness.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I've had a quick go at looking at PC Smith's last patrol by Fanny's house, and arrival at the scene. To do this, I'm working on the basis that PC Lamb is already at the scene, and the other PC was sent to fetch the doctor and exited Berner's Street by the time PC Smith gets to the top of Berner Street. I've set that PC to a "Hurries" speed of 4.11, so half way between a walk and a run. I think there's a good argument to be made for that PC to have gotten further than just exiting Berner's Street, so I added an additional 20 feet to use for now as a minimum.

Once I get that time, I back up in time by 27.5 minutes, his average patrol time, to determine the time he was last at the top of Berner Street. Going with a patrol speed of 2.7 mph, and presuming that he heads south on Berner, then does both sides of Sander, then continues south on Berner to shortly before Dutsfield yard (Fanny's house), I estimate the time he passed Fanny's. If Fanny correctly identified the footsteps she heard as PC Smith's, and comes out to start her vigil shortly afterwards (say 3 minutes, which also gives PC Smith time to complete his patrol of Berner Street and exit onto Commercial), then we could estimate her arrival time. She estimated she was on her doorstep for 10 minutes, which translates to just under 8 minutes, but for now I'll use 8 minutes for her time on the doorstep.

To get his arrival time at the scene, I use the time he reached the top of Berner Street, and have him speed up to a walk (3.1 mph) to head directly to the crowd (so he doesn't do Sander Street on that stretch).

To do these calculations, I'm going with the "Eagle Hurries" version, which estimated PC Lamb's arrival at the scene as being 1:05:50.
That gives us:
1:06:54: PC has exited Berners and is 20 feet along towards the Doctors House/PC Smith reaches the top of Berner Street
1:07:08: PC Smith arrives at the Scene

Prior to the above:
1:34:24: PC Smith at the top of Berner Street on his previous patrol
1:37:27: PC Smith passes Fanny's House
1:40:27: Fanny emerges to start her vigil.
1:48:27: Fanny goes inside (using 8 minutes for an estimated 10 minutes)

Keeping in mind these times are in reference to the clock at the Leman Street Police Station, and not the clock that PC Smith used to determine the time, the differences are pretty minimal, and suggest PC Smith's clock and the Leman Street Police Station clock differ in the vicinity of 5 minutes (with PC Smith's clock being the one reading the earlier time, so PC Smith's 1:30-1:35 would be the LSPS clock reading 1:35-1:40 type thing).

That means, somewhere between 1:40:27 and 1:48:27 we have Goldstein walk down Berner Street.

And there is the time period between 1:48:27 and the estimated Deimschutz arrival (12:59:48), so 11m 21s in which the Schwartz event (2 minutes) could still occur.

Of course, if Fanny was mistaken about who produced the footsteps, then those footsteps occur after PC Smith's patrol, so that would suggest Fanny emerged even later, shifting her vigil window. But since we have to allow for her to emerge and not see who produced the footsteps (so roughly 3 minutes), then the whole Schwartz event (2 minutes) could have been happening just before she emerged anyway (it's tight, but it can't be ruled out).

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

"Any idea why Collins was "HR"?"

"R" denotes reserve.

Collins was one of seven "reserve" officers in H Division. He lived a couple of doors from the Beehive Public House.

Thanks Dusty.

[Herlock Sholmes]

"Any idea why Collins was "HR"?"

"R" denotes reserve.

Collins was one of seven "reserve" officers in H Division. He lived a couple of doors from the Beehive Public House.

Thanks Dusty, I seemed to recall that it meant ‘reserve’ but I couldn’t recall where I’d got it from. Neil Bell I think.

[drstrange169]

"Any idea why Collins was "HR"?"

"R" denotes reserve.

Collins was one of seven "reserve" officers in H Division. He lived a couple of doors from the Beehive Public House.

[GBinOz]

Recalling which officer had which number can be a pain. I had this short list from ages ago which I just found.


PC 252H Henry Lamb

PC 282H Joseph Drage

PC 452H William Smith

PC 12HR Albert Collins

PC 262H Thomas Barrett

PC 426H William Robert Ayliffe

Useful list my friend. Thanks for sharing. Any idea why Collins was "HR"?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

The timeline by GBinOZ is very good and clearly well researched and has got my brain whirring again. I think there is something in this 10 minute time discrepancy. I really have ignored most of the discussions regarding the time issues and concentrated on the other evidence . I think what JeffHamm is suggesting in his last post is that there will always be different times recorded or suggested by different people so its difficult. I think if we look at the witness reports and just try ro put timings out of our minds to start with well it all works I guess, like GBinOZ and many others I guess have worked out. But what if all roads lead to there being a 10 minute discrepancy, GBinOZ suggests time of Strides death at 1247 - 1252. Now Diemschutz arrives according to his statement at 0100. Now my earlier suggestion is that when Stride is murdered certain people already know this. This may have been present at the time of the event. Is Diemschutz making up the time. He goes out of his way to say 0100 hrs exactly (taken from the clock at the Bakers shop at the corner of Berners street) Is this true. was there a Bakers shop, did it have a clock he could see from his cart considering his route, these are the sort of questions we need to consider. Did Diemschutz try to cover the period where people were discussing what to do, I dont really know myself what I am quite getting at but what is the evidence telling us. I am thinking that the place was quite busy. It just doesnt go amazingly quiet at the point Stride is killed does it and then springs into life again when the cart comes through the gate. More went on here involving more people than Stride and her killer. Well maybe not. NW

Hi NW,

If you look through the interviews conducted with Diemshitz close to the murder he invariably states that he returned at his usual time of about 1am. Come the inquest and he has firmed up that time and is referencing having seen the clock in the Harris Tobacconist (Baccy shop misheard as Baker shop??) on the corner of Berner and Commercial Rd, and it reading exactly 1:00. That building still stands and has as its facade on Commercial Rd thick pillars with glass windows. Harris had a clock in the window as a courtesy for his customers, but it is my contention that the clock would have been hidden by the pillars from Diemshitz's position when he turned right into Berner St from the middle of Commercial Rd. That opinion is not shared by others.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

PC 252 H was Lamb, George, and PC 12 H was Collins, who had, apparently, come to the yard after hearing Lamb blowing his whistle or was, possibly, alerted by this man seen by Brown, as you suggest. And, yes, Eagle was despatched before the arrival of PC 12 H.

The best,
Frank

Thanks Frank. I stand corrected.

Best regards, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Recalling which officer had which number can be a pain. I had this short list from ages ago which I just found.


PC 252H Henry Lamb

PC 282H Joseph Drage

PC 452H William Smith

PC 12HR Albert Collins

PC 262H Thomas Barrett

PC 426H William Robert Ayliffe

[New Waterloo]

The timeline by GBinOZ is very good and clearly well researched and has got my brain whirring again. I think there is something in this 10 minute time discrepancy. I really have ignored most of the discussions regarding the time issues and concentrated on the other evidence . I think what JeffHamm is suggesting in his last post is that there will always be different times recorded or suggested by different people so its difficult. I think if we look at the witness reports and just try ro put timings out of our minds to start with well it all works I guess, like GBinOZ and many others I guess have worked out. But what if all roads lead to there being a 10 minute discrepancy, GBinOZ suggests time of Strides death at 1247 - 1252. Now Diemschutz arrives according to his statement at 0100. Now my earlier suggestion is that when Stride is murdered certain people already know this. This may have been present at the time of the event. Is Diemschutz making up the time. He goes out of his way to say 0100 hrs exactly (taken from the clock at the Bakers shop at the corner of Berners street) Is this true. was there a Bakers shop, did it have a clock he could see from his cart considering his route, these are the sort of questions we need to consider. Did Diemschutz try to cover the period where people were discussing what to do, I dont really know myself what I am quite getting at but what is the evidence telling us. I am thinking that the place was quite busy. It just doesnt go amazingly quiet at the point Stride is killed does it and then springs into life again when the cart comes through the gate. More went on here involving more people than Stride and her killer. Well maybe not. NW