Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[GBinOz]

Here is a little more information about Smith, from The Times 6 Oct:

When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.

The fixed point PC was 426 H, so 252 H must have been the PC seen by Brown at the corner of Grove and Fairclough who Brown said was told by a man on the opposite side of the street (presumably Harris) that he was needed at Berner St. So Smith arrives after 426 H has been despatched to Blackwell's surgery, and after 252 H has arrived from Grove and Fairclough, but before the arrival of Johnson. I would think that Lamb would have sent a PC to Leman St instead of Eagle, had a PC been available. So perhaps Eagle was despatched before the arrival of 252 H?

It appears that The Times (Oct 24) was one of the few publications to relate the Coroner's full summary, and there are some curious statements:

At 12 30 p.m. the constable on the beat (William Smith) saw the deceased in Berner-street standing on the pavement a few yards from Commercial-street, and he observed she was wearing a flower in her dress.
They last saw her alive at the corner of Fairclough-street and Berner-street, saying "Not to-night, but some other night." Within a quarter of an hour her lifeless body was found at a spot only a few yards from where she was last seen alive.
He was in a two-wheeled barrow drawn by a pony, and as he entered the gateway his pony shied at some object on his right. There was no lamp in the yard, and having just come out of the street it was too dark to see what the object was and he passed on further down the yard. He returned on foot, and on searching found the body of deceased with her throat cut.

Smith seeing Stride a few yards from Commercial-street seems contradictory, but his other quotation of the word "few" seems to suggest that either Baxter or the reporter may have been using the word outside of its accepted meaning. The idea that Diemshitz took his pony down the yard and returned to the body is one that I've not seen elsewhere.

Cheers, George

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

...

I don’t know if that’s true, Jeff. I’ve measured Smith’s entire beat (as I’ve understood it to be), including side streets and alleys like Sander Street and Hampshire Court as 2000 m/2187 yards. To cover that distance in 27.5 minutes, one has to walk at a speed of 2.7 mph(!).

....

Cheers,
Frank

I may have to go back to look at my notes. It's possible when I came up with 2.2 mph, I was basing that on PC Smith being in Berner Street at the time he states, but having him arrive based upon the movements of the others and setting his arrival time Dr. Blackwell's watch time. If I didn't adjust his patrol of Berner Street accordingly, and his time and Dr. Blackwell's watch time are out of sync (with his clock reading a few minutes earlier than Dr. Blackwell's), then that would result in my slower estimation of his patrol speed.

Perhaps with Smith, the best approach might be to try to work out his "standardized arrival time" based upon who was there, who had left, etc, as we've been discussing, and then use his beat completion time to determine his patrol time of Berner Street (in Standardized time; whether one ist standardizing to Dr. Blackwell's watch or the Leman Street Police Station clock doesn't matter, although of course the calculated times will differ by some amount based upon which one is being "locked" to).

If we do that, then that might help to better isolate the time window for Fanny's vigil in standardized time values. I get the feeling that in "standardized time", PC Smith's patrol of Berner Street will be later than he states based upon his clock (similar to his arrival time).

The Stride case is the most complicated given the number of people involved. On the other hand, it also means we have the most data to work with, and personally I put more emphasis on the events (who was there, what happened, etc) to determine the sequence of events, and have less concern with the exact time people said those things happened because they are all referencing different clock, or worse, taking a rough guess at the actual time. While the police are expected to keep track of the time, they would still do so by referencing different clocks, so even two PC's are going have different reference points for the time.

- Jeff

[FrankO]

Here is a little more information about Smith, from The Times 6 Oct:

When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.

The fixed point PC was 426 H, so 252 H must have been the PC seen by Brown at the corner of Grove and Fairclough who Brown said was told by a man on the opposite side of the street (presumably Harris) that he was needed at Berner St. So Smith arrives after 426 H has been despatched to Blackwell's surgery, and after 252 H has arrived from Grove and Fairclough, but before the arrival of Johnson. I would think that Lamb would have sent a PC to Leman St instead of Eagle, had a PC been available. So perhaps Eagle was despatched before the arrival of 252 H?

PC 252 H was Lamb, George, and PC 12 H was Collins, who had, apparently, come to the yard after hearing Lamb blowing his whistle or was, possibly, alerted by this man seen by Brown, as you suggest. And, yes, Eagle was despatched before the arrival of PC 12 H.

The best,
Frank

[FrankO]

Perhaps with Smith, the best approach might be to try to work out his "standardized arrival time" based upon who was there, who had left, etc, as we've been discussing, and then use his beat completion time to determine his patrol time of Berner Street (in Standardized time; whether one ist standardizing to Dr. Blackwell's watch or the Leman Street Police Station clock doesn't matter, although of course the calculated times will differ by some amount based upon which one is being "locked" to).

...

The Stride case is the most complicated given the number of people involved. On the other hand, it also means we have the most data to work with, and personally I put more emphasis on the events (who was there, what happened, etc) to determine the sequence of events, and have less concern with the exact time people said those things happened because they are all referencing different clock, or worse, taking a rough guess at the actual time. While the police are expected to keep track of the time, they would still do so by referencing different clocks, so even two PC's are going have different reference points for the time.

Indeed, Jeff, it might be interesting to get a better picture of the intervals between different witnesses (how long they approximately were & who might fit in there), rather than try to pinpoint the timings of each witness.

Cheers,
Frank

[New Waterloo]

The timeline by GBinOZ is very good and clearly well researched and has got my brain whirring again. I think there is something in this 10 minute time discrepancy. I really have ignored most of the discussions regarding the time issues and concentrated on the other evidence . I think what JeffHamm is suggesting in his last post is that there will always be different times recorded or suggested by different people so its difficult. I think if we look at the witness reports and just try ro put timings out of our minds to start with well it all works I guess, like GBinOZ and many others I guess have worked out. But what if all roads lead to there being a 10 minute discrepancy, GBinOZ suggests time of Strides death at 1247 - 1252. Now Diemschutz arrives according to his statement at 0100. Now my earlier suggestion is that when Stride is murdered certain people already know this. This may have been present at the time of the event. Is Diemschutz making up the time. He goes out of his way to say 0100 hrs exactly (taken from the clock at the Bakers shop at the corner of Berners street) Is this true. was there a Bakers shop, did it have a clock he could see from his cart considering his route, these are the sort of questions we need to consider. Did Diemschutz try to cover the period where people were discussing what to do, I dont really know myself what I am quite getting at but what is the evidence telling us. I am thinking that the place was quite busy. It just doesnt go amazingly quiet at the point Stride is killed does it and then springs into life again when the cart comes through the gate. More went on here involving more people than Stride and her killer. Well maybe not. NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Recalling which officer had which number can be a pain. I had this short list from ages ago which I just found.


PC 252H Henry Lamb

PC 282H Joseph Drage

PC 452H William Smith

PC 12HR Albert Collins

PC 262H Thomas Barrett

PC 426H William Robert Ayliffe

[GBinOz]

PC 252 H was Lamb, George, and PC 12 H was Collins, who had, apparently, come to the yard after hearing Lamb blowing his whistle or was, possibly, alerted by this man seen by Brown, as you suggest. And, yes, Eagle was despatched before the arrival of PC 12 H.

The best,
Frank

Thanks Frank. I stand corrected.

Best regards, George

[GBinOz]

The timeline by GBinOZ is very good and clearly well researched and has got my brain whirring again. I think there is something in this 10 minute time discrepancy. I really have ignored most of the discussions regarding the time issues and concentrated on the other evidence . I think what JeffHamm is suggesting in his last post is that there will always be different times recorded or suggested by different people so its difficult. I think if we look at the witness reports and just try ro put timings out of our minds to start with well it all works I guess, like GBinOZ and many others I guess have worked out. But what if all roads lead to there being a 10 minute discrepancy, GBinOZ suggests time of Strides death at 1247 - 1252. Now Diemschutz arrives according to his statement at 0100. Now my earlier suggestion is that when Stride is murdered certain people already know this. This may have been present at the time of the event. Is Diemschutz making up the time. He goes out of his way to say 0100 hrs exactly (taken from the clock at the Bakers shop at the corner of Berners street) Is this true. was there a Bakers shop, did it have a clock he could see from his cart considering his route, these are the sort of questions we need to consider. Did Diemschutz try to cover the period where people were discussing what to do, I dont really know myself what I am quite getting at but what is the evidence telling us. I am thinking that the place was quite busy. It just doesnt go amazingly quiet at the point Stride is killed does it and then springs into life again when the cart comes through the gate. More went on here involving more people than Stride and her killer. Well maybe not. NW

Hi NW,

If you look through the interviews conducted with Diemshitz close to the murder he invariably states that he returned at his usual time of about 1am. Come the inquest and he has firmed up that time and is referencing having seen the clock in the Harris Tobacconist (Baccy shop misheard as Baker shop??) on the corner of Berner and Commercial Rd, and it reading exactly 1:00. That building still stands and has as its facade on Commercial Rd thick pillars with glass windows. Harris had a clock in the window as a courtesy for his customers, but it is my contention that the clock would have been hidden by the pillars from Diemshitz's position when he turned right into Berner St from the middle of Commercial Rd. That opinion is not shared by others.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Recalling which officer had which number can be a pain. I had this short list from ages ago which I just found.


PC 252H Henry Lamb

PC 282H Joseph Drage

PC 452H William Smith

PC 12HR Albert Collins

PC 262H Thomas Barrett

PC 426H William Robert Ayliffe

Useful list my friend. Thanks for sharing. Any idea why Collins was "HR"?

Cheers, George

[drstrange169]

"Any idea why Collins was "HR"?"

"R" denotes reserve.

Collins was one of seven "reserve" officers in H Division. He lived a couple of doors from the Beehive Public House.

[Herlock Sholmes]

"Any idea why Collins was "HR"?"

"R" denotes reserve.

Collins was one of seven "reserve" officers in H Division. He lived a couple of doors from the Beehive Public House.

Thanks Dusty, I seemed to recall that it meant ‘reserve’ but I couldn’t recall where I’d got it from. Neil Bell I think.

[GBinOz]

"Any idea why Collins was "HR"?"

"R" denotes reserve.

Collins was one of seven "reserve" officers in H Division. He lived a couple of doors from the Beehive Public House.

Thanks Dusty.

[JeffHamm]

Indeed, Jeff, it might be interesting to get a better picture of the intervals between different witnesses (how long they approximately were & who might fit in there), rather than try to pinpoint the timings of each witness.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I've had a quick go at looking at PC Smith's last patrol by Fanny's house, and arrival at the scene. To do this, I'm working on the basis that PC Lamb is already at the scene, and the other PC was sent to fetch the doctor and exited Berner's Street by the time PC Smith gets to the top of Berner Street. I've set that PC to a "Hurries" speed of 4.11, so half way between a walk and a run. I think there's a good argument to be made for that PC to have gotten further than just exiting Berner's Street, so I added an additional 20 feet to use for now as a minimum.

Once I get that time, I back up in time by 27.5 minutes, his average patrol time, to determine the time he was last at the top of Berner Street. Going with a patrol speed of 2.7 mph, and presuming that he heads south on Berner, then does both sides of Sander, then continues south on Berner to shortly before Dutsfield yard (Fanny's house), I estimate the time he passed Fanny's. If Fanny correctly identified the footsteps she heard as PC Smith's, and comes out to start her vigil shortly afterwards (say 3 minutes, which also gives PC Smith time to complete his patrol of Berner Street and exit onto Commercial), then we could estimate her arrival time. She estimated she was on her doorstep for 10 minutes, which translates to just under 8 minutes, but for now I'll use 8 minutes for her time on the doorstep.

To get his arrival time at the scene, I use the time he reached the top of Berner Street, and have him speed up to a walk (3.1 mph) to head directly to the crowd (so he doesn't do Sander Street on that stretch).

To do these calculations, I'm going with the "Eagle Hurries" version, which estimated PC Lamb's arrival at the scene as being 1:05:50.
That gives us:
1:06:54: PC has exited Berners and is 20 feet along towards the Doctors House/PC Smith reaches the top of Berner Street
1:07:08: PC Smith arrives at the Scene

Prior to the above:
1:34:24: PC Smith at the top of Berner Street on his previous patrol
1:37:27: PC Smith passes Fanny's House
1:40:27: Fanny emerges to start her vigil.
1:48:27: Fanny goes inside (using 8 minutes for an estimated 10 minutes)

Keeping in mind these times are in reference to the clock at the Leman Street Police Station, and not the clock that PC Smith used to determine the time, the differences are pretty minimal, and suggest PC Smith's clock and the Leman Street Police Station clock differ in the vicinity of 5 minutes (with PC Smith's clock being the one reading the earlier time, so PC Smith's 1:30-1:35 would be the LSPS clock reading 1:35-1:40 type thing).

That means, somewhere between 1:40:27 and 1:48:27 we have Goldstein walk down Berner Street.

And there is the time period between 1:48:27 and the estimated Deimschutz arrival (12:59:48), so 11m 21s in which the Schwartz event (2 minutes) could still occur.

Of course, if Fanny was mistaken about who produced the footsteps, then those footsteps occur after PC Smith's patrol, so that would suggest Fanny emerged even later, shifting her vigil window. But since we have to allow for her to emerge and not see who produced the footsteps (so roughly 3 minutes), then the whole Schwartz event (2 minutes) could have been happening just before she emerged anyway (it's tight, but it can't be ruled out).

- Jeff

[Lewis C]

Hi Frank,

I've had a quick go at looking at PC Smith's last patrol by Fanny's house, and arrival at the scene. To do this, I'm working on the basis that PC Lamb is already at the scene, and the other PC was sent to fetch the doctor and exited Berner's Street by the time PC Smith gets to the top of Berner Street. I've set that PC to a "Hurries" speed of 4.11, so half way between a walk and a run. I think there's a good argument to be made for that PC to have gotten further than just exiting Berner's Street, so I added an additional 20 feet to use for now as a minimum.

Once I get that time, I back up in time by 27.5 minutes, his average patrol time, to determine the time he was last at the top of Berner Street. Going with a patrol speed of 2.7 mph, and presuming that he heads south on Berner, then does both sides of Sander, then continues south on Berner to shortly before Dutsfield yard (Fanny's house), I estimate the time he passed Fanny's. If Fanny correctly identified the footsteps she heard as PC Smith's, and comes out to start her vigil shortly afterwards (say 3 minutes, which also gives PC Smith time to complete his patrol of Berner Street and exit onto Commercial), then we could estimate her arrival time. She estimated she was on her doorstep for 10 minutes, which translates to just under 8 minutes, but for now I'll use 8 minutes for her time on the doorstep.

To get his arrival time at the scene, I use the time he reached the top of Berner Street, and have him speed up to a walk (3.1 mph) to head directly to the crowd (so he doesn't do Sander Street on that stretch).

To do these calculations, I'm going with the "Eagle Hurries" version, which estimated PC Lamb's arrival at the scene as being 1:05:50.
That gives us:
1:06:54: PC has exited Berners and is 20 feet along towards the Doctors House/PC Smith reaches the top of Berner Street
1:07:08: PC Smith arrives at the Scene

Prior to the above:
1:34:24: PC Smith at the top of Berner Street on his previous patrol
1:37:27: PC Smith passes Fanny's House
1:40:27: Fanny emerges to start her vigil.
1:48:27: Fanny goes inside (using 8 minutes for an estimated 10 minutes)

Keeping in mind these times are in reference to the clock at the Leman Street Police Station, and not the clock that PC Smith used to determine the time, the differences are pretty minimal, and suggest PC Smith's clock and the Leman Street Police Station clock differ in the vicinity of 5 minutes (with PC Smith's clock being the one reading the earlier time, so PC Smith's 1:30-1:35 would be the LSPS clock reading 1:35-1:40 type thing).

That means, somewhere between 1:40:27 and 1:48:27 we have Goldstein walk down Berner Street.

And there is the time period between 1:48:27 and the estimated Deimschutz arrival (12:59:48), so 11m 21s in which the Schwartz event (2 minutes) could still occur.

Of course, if Fanny was mistaken about who produced the footsteps, then those footsteps occur after PC Smith's patrol, so that would suggest Fanny emerged even later, shifting her vigil window. But since we have to allow for her to emerge and not see who produced the footsteps (so roughly 3 minutes), then the whole Schwartz event (2 minutes) could have been happening just before she emerged anyway (it's tight, but it can't be ruled out).

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I believe that in the above post, where I've bolded a "1", your intention was to say "12" rather than "1".

[JeffHamm]

Ooops! I really shouldn't try to do these sorts of things in a rush.

I added, rather than subtracted, PC Smith's Patrol time, which then messes up the other time estimations. So the times in the "Prior" section should read:

Prior to the above:
12:39:24 : PC Smith at the top of Berner Street on his previous patrol
12:42:27 : PC Smith passes Fanny's House
12:45:46 : Fanny emerges to start her vigil.
12:53:46 : Fanny goes inside (using 8 minutes for an estimated 10 minutes)

So that would suggest PC Smith's clock is closer to 7 or so minutes out of sync with the Leman Street Police Station clock. We don't know what clock PC Smith is using, of course, and given the number of clocks involved, it becomes increasingly likely that one at least will be out by a larger amount, so if during these recreations, we really only end up with one clock on the larger end of the expected range that is not a real problem. I don't think 7 minutes is particularly large myself, but opinions will vary.

One thing that looks interesting, now that I think I've got these bits working properly, is that 12:45 comes up fairly often with regards to Fanny's vigil, and we're in that zone of times. It also reduces the delays between her going inside and Deimschutz's arrival closer to her estimated 4 minutes, and while the longer delay isn't unacceptable, it is on the longer side.

With Deimschutz's arrival being estimated to be 12:59:48, there's 6m and 2s in which the Schwartz event could occur, and it only requires about 2 m, so there's more than sufficient time for that to occur post-vigil. Also, of course, if we increase the delay between PC Smith's patrol and Fanny coming out, there's also time for it to occur just prior to her going outside too.

- Jeff