Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[Herlock Sholmes]

That concludes my speculative statements of "Waffle" on this topic. I can hear Herlock (among others) breathing a sigh of relief.

Best regards, George

Hello George,

Not at all. We can certainly agree to disagree. I don’t have any problem with looking at all of the angles but I’m wary of getting carried away. My ‘waffle’ comment was a poor choice of words but it wasn’t directed at you.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So we have a reporter looking for people who have something to say about the events of earlier that morning. He sees three women chatting outside Fanny Mortimer’s front door and goes over. What’s being suggested is that either Fanny wasn’t one of them (not impossible but it seems a bit of a coincidence that they are standing outside of the front door of a woman who we know has something to say and she’s not out there) or that she was there but kept quiet allowing our Mrs X to talk.

Mrs X then proceeds to tell a story which is rather more than ‘similar’ to Fanny’s. She’d just gone back indoors and was preparing for bed when she heard the commotion and she left her house immediately and went to the gateway. She also mentions Leon Goldstein passing and that she would have heard any screams had they occurred.

The reporter takes notes; goes back to the office and writes up his rough notes. So are the differences such that they can be explained in terms of inaccurate writing up on the part of the reporter?

He writes ‘up Berner Street’ when in Fanny’s interview she says ‘down Berner Street.’ I’d suggest that this would be an easy mistake to make especially for someone that didn’t live in Berner Street.

She said “He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially." I’d suggest that she’d said something with this gist ‘he might have come from the club as lots of young Jewish men are members,’ meaning that she was just saying that Goldstein might have been a club member which might have explained why he glanced toward the club as he’d passed. It’s difficult, if not impossible, to accept that no mention would previously have been made of a man with a bag exiting the yard close to the time of the murder.

Then we have “She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan..” If he’d asked the woman what her husband had done for a living wouldn’t she have told him exactly (a furniture maker, a watchmaker?) rather than using the general term ‘artisan?’ I think that the reporter, using the word apparently, simply meant that this woman looked to have been of a better class than her neighbours…of the artisan class rather than the labouring classes.

Did someone actually mention the ‘10 inches of steel?’ Fanny certainly never mentioned hearing anyone say it previously and you would be hard pressed to find someone that lived closer to the club that her but maybe she did hear it at some point. Or maybe the reporter was simply adding colour. Or maybe Fanny herself was adding a bit of ‘shock, horror?’ Or to give her the benefit of the doubt, perhaps it was a detail that she just hadn’t mentioned before. To be honest, and it’s probably personal bias, I’m always slightly wary of reports that use the vernacular. It always seems to me to point to a desire for the dramatic. “He might ha’ been…” “..at that time o' night.” I’m almost waiting for the ‘gor blimey guv’nor’ to follow.

Others might disagree of course but for me Mrs X is too similar to Fanny to have been someone else.

[FrankO]

Do many young men go to the club at 40 Berner Street on Saturday nights or does it attract an older clientele. How do we find this out? Age of members.

Hi NW,

Here's an article from the Times of 26 April 1889, containing the ages of Diemshutz and Kozebrodski at that moment:
"Lewis Diemschitz [Louis Diemschutz], 27, and Isaac Kozebrodski, 19, surrendered to their bail to answer an indictment for making a riot and rout, and for assaulting various persons. A third man, Samuel Friedman, who was indicted with the defendants did not surrender to his bail when called. Mr. Gill and Mr. Partridge prosecuted on behalf of the Commissioner of Police; and Mr. W. M. Thompson represented the defendants. The alleged disturbance occurred on March 16, on which day there had been a procession of the Jewish unemployed in the East-end. After the dispersal of the procession, many of those composing it returned to the International Workmen's Club, Berner-street, Commercial-road, E., of which they were members, and from which the procession had started. A crowd of some 200 or 300 persons, who had been following the procession, assembled outside the club, and began to annoy those inside by throwing stones, hooting, and knocking at the door. The defendant Diemschitz, steward of the club, sent for the police, but when they arrived those inside the club assumed the defensive, and, rushing out in a body, attacked the crowd with broom sticks, walking sticks, and umbrellas. It was stated that the defendants bore a prominent part in the fight, and that Diemschitz struck and kicked plain clothes constable Frost, who interfered. Frost attempted to arrest Diemschitz, but was dragged into the club, where he was beaten and kicked. On the conclusion of the case for the prosecution, Mr. Gill abandoned the count for riot. A number of witnesses were called for the defence, who gave evidence to the effect that the police had made an entirely unprovoked attack on the defendants and their companions. The jury found the defendants Guilty of assaulting two constables, but Acquitted them on the other counts. The Chairman said they had greatly aggravated their offence by the defence they had set up. Diemschitz was sentenced to three months' imprisonment with hard labour, and on his liberation to be bound over and to find sureties to keep the peace for 12 months. Kosebrodski was sentenced to pay a fine of £4, or to be imprisoned for one month."

At least they were young.

The best,
Frank

[FrankO]

The photo in the linked post suggests that anyone standing on their doorstep would still have been inside, strictly speaking. Looking hard right, they would have seen ... bricks.

Well, strictly speaking you’d be right, Andrew. But practically, where would be the fun in watching bricks?

By the way, thanks for the link to that picture of Berner Street. I think I hadn't seen that yet. Beautiful!

If the two women are one and the same, then 'previously' cannot refer to 'just before', because the direction of travel is reversed. Therefore, unless Fanny lied or a reporter made something up, 'previously' must refer to some earlier point in the evening.

Ah, interesting suggestion: someone lied or made something up.

That earlier point could be any time, including prior to 12:30. We have no quote from Fanny or a Fanny candidate, that suggests she saw bag man walking south just before she locks up.

Correct. But that would imply that Goldstein lied about what time he estimated he passed through Berner Street from Settles Street (or that Wess did that). There’s that interesting suggestion again: that someone lied. Or took a liberty. Take your pick.

Wess can't claim that bag man walked down the street at about the time of the murder, because Mortimer did not specify when 'previously' was. His implicit equating of 'about the time of the murder' with 'previously', is not justified.

Wasn’t there somebody with Wess? Ah yes, Goldstein was there. And it would have been he who stated that it was “About 1 a.m.” and that he “was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour”

The best,
Frank

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Do many young men go to the club at 40 Berner Street on Saturday nights or does it attract an older clientele. How do we find this out? Age of members. This is probably not achievable but maybe as I am aware many of you have been at this for years, perhaps there are lists of members

Try the wiki for the ages of club members.

Is there a Socialist club nearby on Commercial Road. I seem to recall this being mentioned before. I mean if its just around the corner then just maybe its that club being referred to.

Are you thinking of this?