Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[c.d.]

And the subsequent GSG which related to Stride and not Eddowes, but linked when the Ripper purposefully placed Eddowes Apron segment underneath it to highlight there was a link to Stride.

Simply conjecture and not proven fact. Lots of assumptions in that statement.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

that's why the entire Schwartz incident was fiction, including BS man and Pipeman and the entire Anti Semitic rhetoric

Except that the entire Anti Semitic rhetoric only consisted of the shout of "Lipski" and Schwartz couldn't even be certain of that. If it was in fact Lipski, and Schwartz had a Jewish appearance and the B.S. thought he was trying to intervene then a shout of Lipski would seem to be a quite appropriate slur. I don't see any reason to conclude that it was calculated as part of some ingenious plot.

c.d.

And the choice of location for the murder
And the fact Stride worked for the Jews
And the subsequent GSG which related to Stride and not Eddowes, but linked when the Ripper purposefully placed Eddowes Apron segment underneath it to highlight there was a link to Stride.
And the stereotypical Jewish looking Schwartz who was a man playing a part; and possibly the Ripper incognito.

There is a reason why a man gave the story of the assault on Stride...

He was right there in plain sight.

Like a killer who joins in a communal search for a missing person, who they themselves have killed.

It's just one big fun game for the killer.


I was incorrect when I suggested that Schwartz was paid to tell a story and I retract that because it's far fetched nonsense... But the idea that Schwartz was the Ripper incognito...I stand by that


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

[QUOTE=Herlock Sholmes;

All we have to ask is - could the Schwartz incident have occurred at a time when Fanny Mortimer was indoors? The answer is - absolutely.[/QUOTE]


I agree...

But also when Eagle, Lave, Parcelman, PC Smith, Brown, Goldstein, Miss Letchford and the other couple were not there in the street either.

Or within earshot of hearing BS Man shout Lipski


RD

[c.d.]

Stride as lured to her death by someone she thought she could trust.

But what exactly does that mean? "Trust" as in someone she knew and had no reason to believe would harm her or a client whom she assumed was not the Ripper?

Trust is a pretty relative word and can run the gamut.

c.d.

[c.d.]

that's why the entire Schwartz incident was fiction, including BS man and Pipeman and the entire Anti Semitic rhetoric

Except that the entire Anti Semitic rhetoric only consisted of the shout of "Lipski" and Schwartz couldn't even be certain of that. If it was in fact Lipski, and Schwartz had a Jewish appearance and the B.S. thought he was trying to intervene then a shout of Lipski would seem to be a quite appropriate slur. I don't see any reason to conclude that it was calculated as part of some ingenious plot.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Schwartz was paid to give a false statement to detract from the truth.

I wonder what the going rate was in 1888 for paying someone to lie in a murder investigation and thus putting themselves at great risk of repercussions?

c.d.

Not enough c.d.

[c.d.]

Schwartz was paid to give a false statement to detract from the truth.

I wonder what the going rate was in 1888 for paying someone to lie in a murder investigation and thus putting themselves at great risk of repercussions?

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If you didnt keep posting that the matter is resolved and all accounts support your contention, then I wouldnt have to wonder aloud about your capabilities. It’s not resolved, and not everyone agrees with you. Now, Lets start there.

Until I see someone say “I also believe that there was a conspiracy by the club members to employ a false witness to try and prove that the killer was a gentile and so save the club from being shut down by the police,’ then I can only assume that no one else does accept the plot theory. And even if one person did come forward that would still only be 2 versus every other Ripperologist. How much more of a minority could there be?

[Herlock Sholmes]

But the key difference is that in all of those examples...none of them include other people.


With Schwartz we have BS man, Pipeman, a physical assault in the street and a shout of "Lispki"


Therefore, it's not the verification of what Schwartz said that is the main point; it's the fact that it includes multiple individuals at a time when a woman was standing at her door and a policeman had just passed by.

So unless BS Man is ALSO Parcelman, then his statement doesn't work in practice based on PC Smith and Mortimer and the timings of the aftermath of the finding of the body.

The only place where Schwartz's account could fit, is AFTER 12.55am.

In which case, just after Mortimer goes inside at 12.54am, Schwartz walks down Berner Street and sees BS Man at 12.55am, who had to have come from the south and walked back toward Stride just before Schwartz sees him.
BS Man then; who moments after Schwartz ran off, cuts her throat and either ran off; or went back into the club.

PC Smith would have walked past the junction between 12.57am-12.58am IF he was where he was supposed to be on his route based on the timings of the subsequent finding of the body, and so the only man who could have killed Stride IF Schwartz is correct, is BS Man...at a kill time of 12.56am.

This would support Strides bleed out time.

The Schwartz incident could NOT have happened at 12.45am IF you believe Mortimer AND Pc Smith and the timings of the finding of her body


RD

All that we have to accept the possibility of is that Fanny Mortimer missed an incident that would have taken up around 30 seconds. And as we don’t know the times in question it’s difficult to see how we can conclusively confirm or disprove any particular timeline of events.

What time was Fanny on her doorstep and when was she indoors? We just have no way of knowing. She said ‘nearly the whole time’ between 12.30 and 1.00 but how accurate is that? She said that she went onto her doorstep after the footsteps that she assumed was a Constable - so was it Smith? If so what time did he pass as he gave an estimate with 5 minutes leeway? Could she have heard someone else and mistaken it for a Constable. One version from the Press has her going onto her doorstep just before 12.45. Ok, so how long is ‘just before,’ 2 minutes, 5 minutes? And how long was she on her doorstep? One version says 10 minutes - if that was what she’d said then Jeff has shown us how wrong we can be when estimating periods of time. And, if she went onto her doorstep just before 12.45 - let’s say 12.43 - then that’s 17 minutes gone from that 30 minutes and so it’s hardly ‘nearly the whole’ time - it might actually have been ‘less than half’ of the time.

Then factor in that we have no way of verifying Schwartz time. Maybe he passed at 12.40 or 12.50 or anywhere in between.

All we have to ask is - could the Schwartz incident have occurred at a time when Fanny Mortimer was indoors? The answer is - absolutely.

[c.d.]

Thats the crux here. Which group, would a reasonable person assume, had no connection with the operation of the club or any responsibility for the premises?
Conversely, which group would suffer consequences perhaps including eviction and job loss if the police were inclined to believe that a club attendee killed Liz Stride?

Bias, self protection, anti establishment values, ...yet the anarchists have been dusted off and given credence OVER the establishment individuals, essentially giving the asylum inmates the keys to the exit door.

Motive (even if it can be established with absolute certainty) in and of itself, has no direct correlation to actions. That has to be proven and I see no evidence of that.

A prosecuting attorney doesn't simply establish motive and then say the prosecution rests.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

I see that George endorsed supporting the timings provided by Smith and Lamb, although Im not sure whether any plus/minus variable could be applied with general consensus. Ive said that I also endorse the times given by the authorities that had.. as a function of their jobs.... keeping accounts of the various times and locations on their beats.

Using only Lamb for the moment, and setting aside any subjective arguments about a reasonable plus/minus filter to apply to here..."Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting"

2 men. Before 1am. Who are the 2 men...we know 1 is Eagle, and we know Issac K said he hooked up with Eagle and the constable when he came to Commercial looking for help. So its Issac Kozebrodski, and Morris Eagle. And the time is established by a individual tasked with tracking his times at "just before" 1am. Yes, other reports have him saying other things, but they are interviews, the "just before" is part of the transcript from the Inquest recorded Oct 3 in the Daily Telegraph.

Simple question, and I would appreciate simple comments based just on the facts as stipulated. 2 men, just before 1am.

Can Lamb have seen Morris Eagle and Issac Kozebrodski "just before 1am"....both who have been out looking for assistance since the "discovery"....could he see either of them before the stated time of discovery by Louis D, which was, unequivocally....."On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street."

The answer is NO, not if Louis was correct. And Louis cannot be correct if Lamb was. Thats where I started my review of who said what and who substantiates whom.

If Louis is correct, then Issac K, Heschberg, Spooner, Mortimer, Lamb, Johnson, Blackwell and Phillips all gave incorrect times.
If Lamb is correct, then Louis, Morris, Mrs D and Lave were incorrect. Oh, and also Israel, someone with a great story and zero demand for it by the authorities running the Inquest.

Thats the crux here. Which group, would a reasonable person assume, had no connection with the operation of the club or any responsibility for the premises?
Conversely, which group would suffer consequences perhaps including eviction and job loss if the police were inclined to believe that a club attendee killed Liz Stride?

Bias, self protection, anti establishment values, ...yet the anarchists have been dusted off and given credence OVER the establishment individuals, essentially giving the asylum inmates the keys to the exit door.

[Michael W Richards]

More personal insults. I’m getting a little tired of this Michael. I’m making every effort to be less irritable and sarcastic when I’m posting these days and yet you seem to think that it’s ok for you keep having personal digs. Less about me and more on the topic.

If you didnt keep posting that the matter is resolved and all accounts support your contention, then I wouldnt have to wonder aloud about your capabilities. Its not resolved, and not everyone agrees with you. Now, Lets start there.

[The Rookie Detective]

It’s worth pointing out that there was no one to corroborate:


What time Cross arrived in Bucks Row.

That PC Neil walked Bucks Row at 3.15.

That Emily Holland saw Polly at 2.30.

That Mary Ann Monk saw Polly at 7.00.

That Thomas Ede saw a man with a knife.

That John Richardson went onto the back door step.

That Albert Cadosch went into his back yard.

That Elizabeth Long saw man and woman in Hanbury Street.


We could compile a long list.

But the key difference is that in all of those examples...none of them include other people.


With Schwartz we have BS man, Pipeman, a physical assault in the street and a shout of "Lispki"


Therefore, it's not the verification of what Schwartz said that is the main point; it's the fact that it includes multiple individuals at a time when a woman was standing at her door and a policeman had just passed by.

So unless BS Man is ALSO Parcelman, then his statement doesn't work in practice based on PC Smith and Mortimer and the timings of the aftermath of the finding of the body.

The only place where Schwartz's account could fit, is AFTER 12.55am.

In which case, just after Mortimer goes inside at 12.54am, Schwartz walks down Berner Street and sees BS Man at 12.55am, who had to have come from the south and walked back toward Stride just before Schwartz sees him.
BS Man then; who moments after Schwartz ran off, cuts her throat and either ran off; or went back into the club.

PC Smith would have walked past the junction between 12.57am-12.58am IF he was where he was supposed to be on his route based on the timings of the subsequent finding of the body, and so the only man who could have killed Stride IF Schwartz is correct, is BS Man...at a kill time of 12.56am.

This would support Strides bleed out time.

The Schwartz incident could NOT have happened at 12.45am IF you believe Mortimer AND Pc Smith and the timings of the finding of her body


RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

A bit like Schwartz's entire statement


The irony


RD

It’s worth pointing out that there was no one to corroborate:


What time Cross arrived in Bucks Row.

That PC Neil walked Bucks Row at 3.15.

That Emily Holland saw Polly at 2.30.

That Mary Ann Monk saw Polly at 7.00.

That Thomas Ede saw a man with a knife.

That John Richardson went onto the back door step.

That Albert Cadosch went into his back yard.

That Elizabeth Long saw man and woman in Hanbury Street.


We could compile a long list.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

I have incorporated, approximately, your timings into my timeline and made some additions:

Before 12:34 - Wess & company leave, Letchford arrives, Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes), Eagle returns to the club, couple arrives at the corner of the board school, Stride & companion arrive opposite the club
...
1:39 – Phillips arrives at Yard. This is consistent with Blackwell’s estimate that Phillips arrived 20-30 minutes after he arrived.
1:41 – Reid arrives at Yard.

The point I am trying to make is that the police times to which Lamb and Smith testified can be accepted without the need to make adjustments to accommodate the time estimates of Mortimer, Eagle, Lave, Brown et al which, according to Chris McKay, could contain clock errors of +/- 10 minutes in addition to any guesstimate errors of the following time intervals.

Hi George,

That would depend on which clock we're using as a common reference point. If that is to be Smith's (that he arrived at the corner of Berner Street at 1 am), then that would, give or take a minute, correspond with Lamb's timing of around 1 am, although I think it would be just a minute or 2 too tight.

Because if, as you suggest, Lamb was approached between 12:59 and 1 am by Eagle & Kozebrodski - say, at 12:59:30 - then Smith would arrive at the top of Berner Street between 1:01:43 and 1:02:12 (calculated with walking speeds varying from 2.5 to 3.1 mph). Putting Smith's time of arrival at the top of Berner Street fixed at 1 am, then Lamb's timing gets placed back in time at between 12:57:15 and 12:57:47.

Another thing is the whistling. You suggest that Lamb whistled when Smith was about to arrive in Dutfield's Yard. That would mean that Lamb didn't whistle until he had been in the yard between 2 and a half and 3 minutes. At that time, according to you, Collins had already arrived and Lamb could expect PC 426 H to re-arrive within a few minutes and other police officers to arrive somewhat later as a result of Eagle’s visit to the LSPS.

While that's entirely possible, of course, it doesn't seem very logical to me. To me, it seems very much more logical for Lamb to have blown his whistle when he was the only police officer on the spot and that would be shortly after sending Eagle & PC 426 H for help. And, in fact, when I read all the different versions of Lamb's inquest statement, it seems to me that that is precisely what happened: he sent the 2 men away for help and then, while he was examining the body and the crowd around him gathered & he told them to keep back, he blew his whistle.

Otherwise, your timeline seems to look good enough as referenced by Smith or Lamb's timing, at least from the part where Diemshutz turns into Berner Street.

The best,
Frank