Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD,

An interesting logical progression, but I would like to make some observations.

Smith testified:
I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.

So from where did you derive "at the top of Berner Street circa 1.07am/1.08am"?

Firstly, while Jeff and Frank have produced some excellent calculations on where Smith may have been based on walking speeds, the fact remains that no one knows the configuration of Smith's beat on that night, except Smith. Furthermore, even if Smith's allocated beat were known, Smith would be the only one that was aware of any contingencies such as stopping to talk to people, walking down an alleyway to investigate something suspicious. The hard fact is that Smith's estimate of the times he was in Berner St are still the best estimates that we can hope to possess.

Secondly, there is a tendency to use the time quoted by Blackwell from his pocket watch as an anchor for all other times which are then adjusted to suite. However, there is a contradiction between Johnson stating that Ayliffe called at "a few minutes past one" and Blackwell testifying that it was 1:10. There is no contradiction between Ayliffe calling at a few minutes past one and Lamb seeing Eagle shortly before or at one.

Thirdly, there is a tendency to adjust the police times in accordance with the claims in the interviews conducted with Fanny Mortimer. The Evening News of 1 Oct had three interviews with women standing at their doors for time intervals varying from 10 minutes to nearly the whole time between 12:30 and 1:00 and one interview with no times mentioned. Most people (not including myself) believe these interviews were all with Fanny Mortimer so, if this were correct, from the same woman we have conflicting reports regarding times and direction of travel of Goldstein, and no indication of whether she was using clock times or the indeterminate synchronisation of such a clock. Mortimer was not called to the inquest, which should be an indication of the opinion of the police regarding her observations, but her massaged times are using to correct those of a trained professional observer. Not by me!

While I was unable to entertain your suspicions regarding Smith, I found your contemplations on Eagle's possible dual role to be interesting. I recall that Andrew (NBFN) recently went down a similar path. I find the use of Eagle's times to establish a time of discovery to be unconvincing.
He testified:
"between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home, going out through the front door. I returned about twenty minutes to one.".

His starting point is variable by 15 minutes, so was not based on a clock observation, and he returned about an hour later, and he stated that he did not look at "the clock" then either. His young lady (who he married on 23 Dec 1888) was Kate Kopelansky, and she lived at 183 Whitechapel Road, which is about a 2 minute walk from where Polly Nichols lost her life. The round trip to her house from the Yard is about 22 minutes, or 26 minutes via Eagle's dwelling at 4 New Road, the latter being about 7 minutes walk from the yard. So it appears that Eagle was engaged in other activities in that time - an extended "saying goodnight" ritual at Kate's home, some other ritual at Eagle's home, or a session in one of the pubs between these locations? No one knows, but if Eagle was returning to the yard from his home he would have turned left into Berner St from Commercial Road. I pass this information to you without further opinion.

That said, in all contexts I find your question "But, where does Parcelman go?" to be very relevant.

Cheers, George

Edit: Yikes, so many posts while I was composing this post. With regard to the quality of Mortimer as a witness - a red letter day... Herlock and I agreeing on something

What can I say George; you make some excellent points with your usual balanced, measured and well thought out approach.

The one thing I love about your posts George is that you always have something constructive to say; no matter where a thread goes, you have a way of steadying the ship and bringing a feeling of calmness to the table.

The perfect moderator.

I can count on one hand those on this forum who share your qualities and I am very much in awe of the way you conduct yourself.

I can't argue with any of your points...

Because they are ALL logical and make sense

I am not necessarily in agreement with you on some of your views, but that doesn't matter, it's the fact that no matter how certain I believe I am on certain aspects of the case, you have an uncanny way of making me rethink things.

And that's a quality I admire immensely.


Essentially, you've never written a bad or negative post and you don't have an ounce of a derogatory nature about you.

Unlike some who condescend and patronize, you always maintain your integrity and dignity and I have the utmost respect for everything you have to say.


Kind regards


RD

[GBinOz]

why do people think that Fanny is a good witness? We don’t know when she was on her doorstep and when she wasn’t. We have no way of knowing her times. We have no way of knowing how long she spent on her doorstep. We might as well just say - at some point in that evening Fanny Mortimer spent an unknown amount of time on her doorstep. What good is that?

And finally let’s add another one….what if Fanny was just an old busybody trying to make herself seem important? After all, Lave didn’t see her on her doorstep, Eagle walked passed her door and didn’t see her on her doorstep. And yes, Schwartz didn’t see her. I don’t get why Fanny is treated as a star witness? I never have.

Particularly when her evidence amounts to "I didn't see anything". Difficult for anyone to contradict.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

PC Smith initially states he passes at 12.30am, which is even less likely based on his being at the top of Berner Street circa 1.07am/1.08am

His beat took 25 to 30 minutes

That places him seeing Parcelman sometime between 12.37am to 12.42am

But PC Smith doesn't see Eagle or Lave, so PC Smith walks down Berner Street at 12.41am, goes to the end, and sees Stride and Parcelman at 12.41am, BUT he then turns around, passes Parcelman and Stride again at 12.42am and then walks north.

Now, that leaves Stride and Parcelman still in position at 12.42 am...

As Pc Smith walks back, he passes Mortimers door and she hears him pass at 12.42am/12.43am




But, where does Parcelman go?

Hi RD,

An interesting logical progression, but I would like to make some observations.

Smith testified:
I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.

So from where did you derive "at the top of Berner Street circa 1.07am/1.08am"?

Firstly, while Jeff and Frank have produced some excellent calculations on where Smith may have been based on walking speeds, the fact remains that no one knows the configuration of Smith's beat on that night, except Smith. Furthermore, even if Smith's allocated beat were known, Smith would be the only one that was aware of any contingencies such as stopping to talk to people, walking down an alleyway to investigate something suspicious. The hard fact is that Smith's estimate of the times he was in Berner St are still the best estimates that we can hope to possess.

Secondly, there is a tendency to use the time quoted by Blackwell from his pocket watch as an anchor for all other times which are then adjusted to suite. However, there is a contradiction between Johnson stating that Ayliffe called at "a few minutes past one" and Blackwell testifying that it was 1:10. There is no contradiction between Ayliffe calling at a few minutes past one and Lamb seeing Eagle shortly before or at one.

Thirdly, there is a tendency to adjust the police times in accordance with the claims in the interviews conducted with Fanny Mortimer. The Evening News of 1 Oct had three interviews with women standing at their doors for time intervals varying from 10 minutes to nearly the whole time between 12:30 and 1:00 and one interview with no times mentioned. Most people (not including myself) believe these interviews were all with Fanny Mortimer so, if this were correct, from the same woman we have conflicting reports regarding times and direction of travel of Goldstein, and no indication of whether she was using clock times or the indeterminate synchronisation of such a clock. Mortimer was not called to the inquest, which should be an indication of the opinion of the police regarding her observations, but her massaged times are using to correct those of a trained professional observer. Not by me!

While I was unable to entertain your suspicions regarding Smith, I found your contemplations on Eagle's possible dual role to be interesting. I recall that Andrew (NBFN) recently went down a similar path. I find the use of Eagle's times to establish a time of discovery to be unconvincing.
He testified:
"between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home, going out through the front door. I returned about twenty minutes to one.".

His starting point is variable by 15 minutes, so was not based on a clock observation, and he returned about an hour later, and he stated that he did not look at "the clock" then either. His young lady (who he married on 23 Dec 1888) was Kate Kopelansky, and she lived at 183 Whitechapel Road, which is about a 2 minute walk from where Polly Nichols lost her life. The round trip to her house from the Yard is about 22 minutes, or 26 minutes via Eagle's dwelling at 4 New Road, the latter being about 7 minutes walk from the yard. So it appears that Eagle was engaged in other activities in that time - an extended "saying goodnight" ritual at Kate's home, some other ritual at Eagle's home, or a session in one of the pubs between these locations? No one knows, but if Eagle was returning to the yard from his home he would have turned left into Berner St from Commercial Road. I pass this information to you without further opinion.

That said, in all contexts I find your question "But, where does Parcelman go?" to be very relevant.

Cheers, George

Edit: Yikes, so many posts while I was composing this post. With regard to the quality of Mortimer as a witness - a red letter day... Herlock and I agreeing on something

[Lewis C]

I agree...

But also when Eagle, Lave, Parcelman, PC Smith, Brown, Goldstein, Miss Letchford and the other couple were not there in the street either.

Or within earshot of hearing BS Man shout Lipski


RD

Mortimer saw Goldstein. I believe that the testimony about Miss Letchford was that she was at her door, not in the street.

[JeffHamm]

...
* Your Jewish Socialist Conspiracy Theory is almost universally rejected. This is because it makes no sense. If the Club was worried about a body being found near the Club, lying about the time of discovery does nothing to solve that problem.
...

And why have your false witness go to the police with a story that implicates a Jewish offender was involved? Schwartz's initial telling was that Lipski was shouted to Pipeman, which suggested the possibility that Pipeman's name was Lipski and so likely Jewish. We know that is what Schwartz told the police because the police did a search of all the Lipski families in the area, which required a fair amount of time and resources. While Abberline was of the opinion that Schwartz was probably mistaken, and that Lipski was most likely shouted at Schwartz as an insult, he didn't dismiss Schwartz's initial interpretation because that would be bad police work. You follow all leads, even ones you aren't as confident in. It is immaterial that, by the time Abberline finished questioning Schwartz on the Lipski matter that Schwartz became uncertain, what matters is the fact that his opening story goes directly counter to the proposed goal of the club conspiracy.

Basically, the story Schwartz starts with when he goes to the police is more likely to draw attention to the club members than deflect it away from club members and therefore Schwartz's initial story disproves the conspiracy, or at the very least disproves Schwartz was in any way connected to it.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

And the choice of location for the murder
And the fact Stride worked for the Jews
And the subsequent GSG which related to Stride and not Eddowes, but linked when the Ripper purposefully placed Eddowes Apron segment underneath it to highlight there was a link to Stride.
And the stereotypical Jewish looking Schwartz who was a man playing a part; and possibly the Ripper incognito.

There is a reason why a man gave the story of the assault on Stride...

He was right there in plain sight.

Like a killer who joins in a communal search for a missing person, who they themselves have killed.

It's just one big fun game for the killer.


''I was incorrect when I suggested that Schwartz was paid to tell a story and I retract that because it's far fetched nonsense... But the idea that Schwartz was the Ripper incognito...I stand by that''


RD

To Late for that , youve shot yourself in the foot , best give it up. Now Schwartz is the Ripper !!!! ive heard it all now . My God where will it end .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Thanks. I always think that collaborative work is the best way to approach things, as each person will have their own methods and ideas as to how to approach a complex problem. If, however, those differences converge upon a similar solution, then that to me is a good sign. On the whole, there really isn't much difference between the time line sequences we're each presenting. George's timeline and the one I've put out are, for all intents and purposes, the same. The value of the hour:min:sec may differ, but that is simply due to the fact that each of us is "locking" our timelines to different "clocks". Given that our sequences are pretty much the same (similar order of events, and similar temporal intervals between events, etc), only the stated times differ, that just points to our clocks being out of sync with each other by about 6 minutes. Frank's timeline is also very similar, and while we differed by something like 3 minutes with regards to Fanny's vigil, much of that was due to me leaving out the patrol of Batty's Garden which accounted for the majority of our differences.

Personally, I'm not fussed about the exact GMT time reading at this point, a rose by any other name after all, but rather working out the temporal sequencing of the events and so forth. As a result, I see the three timelines as replications of each other, with the main bulk of the differences simply attributed to the choice of clock being used as the starting reference point.

- Jeff

Hello Jeff,

I can imagine you three in an incident room but you would need around 30 whiteboards to write up the variations.

I’ll stick to the easy bits.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s a long post so I’ll just add comments and questions.

I agree that Eagle was and almost certainly Lave, but Parcelman is an unknown entity and Pc Smith could have passed as late as 12.43am, because if he passed at 12.35am, it would not fit with the timings of him having been at the top of Berner Street circa 1.07am/1.08am.

PC Smith initially states he passes at 12.30am, which is even less likely based on his being at the top of Berner Street circa 1.07am/1.08am

His beat took 25 to 30 minutes

I don’t understand why you first say 12.35 for Smith and then 12.30? And if he passed at 12.35, a half an hour takes him to back to the same spot at 1.05 which isn’t a problem as far as events post 1.00 are concerned.

That places him seeing Parcelman sometime between 12.37am to 12.42am

But PC Smith doesn't see Eagle or Lave, so PC Smith walks down Berner Street at 12.41am, goes to the end, and sees Stride and Parcelman at 12.41am, BUT he then turns around, passes Parcelman and Stride again at 12.42am and then walks north.

Why do you have Smith covering Berner Street twice?

Why

Now, that leaves Stride and Parcelman still in position at 12.42 am...

Unless he saw them at 12.35 and they left the street just after. They could have both been gone by 12.36.

As Pc Smith walks back, he passes Mortimers door and she hears him pass at 12.42am/12.43am

So now we have

Lave gone by 12.39am - yes
Eagle gone by 12.40am - yes (but he likely passes Stride and Parcelman because when asked if he saw anyone he replied " I dare say I did"...which means...he did.
Pc Smith's beat in Berner Street 12.41am to 12.43am - yes (this corroborates BOTH Mortimer AND PC Smith being at the North of Berner Street at 1.07am-1.08am

Crucially...
Parcelman is with Stride NOT at 12.35am (because Lave doesn't see him OR Stride) he is with her LATER, ergo, at the time when Pc Smith passes between 12.41am to 12.43am.

I don’t think that we can be absolutely certain that Lave didn’t see them. There are different versions of course but he said “nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions." So he’s not saying that he saw no one, just no one acting suspiciously.

We now have Stride and Parcelman at 12.43am and only 2 minutes BEFORE...

Mortimer claims to come to her door
Bs Man walks down Berner Street
Schwartz walks dwon Berner Street
An assault takes place
Brown sees a couple on the corner, who are allegedly at the corner of the street, and yet fails to see or hear the assault on Stride.

That 12.43 could have been 12.36 though. We just don’t know. We can’t disprove things with unknowns.

And...

Stride needs to move from her position on the opposite side and move over to go into the yard and OUT OF SIGHT from Mortimer.

The moment that Stride passes through the gate, she is murdered instantly.

That explains why Mortimer was standing at her door from 12.45/12.46am to 12.55/12.56am.

It doesn't matter because Stride is already dead and out of sight.

Or, she and Parcelman have either gone into Fairclough Street or else they have moved further down Berner Street.


But going back to 12.43am...


Stride moves and walks through the gateway...


But, where does Parcelman go?

At this point I give up. I’m not being disrespectful RD but I haven’t got time to respond to all points.

Now, IF we choose to believe Schwartz, then Parcelman needs to leave, Bs Man needs to walk down the street, Schwartz needs to walk down the street, the assault needs to take place, the chase needs to happen, and Bs Man needs to leave the scene BEFORE Mortimer gets to her door.

But she has just heard PC Smith pass by her door at 12.43am.

And how can he be walk north and NOT bump into BS man and Schwartz?

The only route Pc Smith can take is west through Sanders Street, passing by Mortimer and then turning left around the corner past the Letchford's house at number 30.

He then walks west through into Backchurch lane.


But going back again to 12.43am...


The moment he has gone around the corner, Schwartz then turns the cornerat the top of Berner Street and by the time he gets to see BS Man it is now 12.44am.


That means that the ONLY way that Parcelman can leave and BS Man arrive AFTER Pc Smith leaves and before Mortimer opens her door, is for Parcelman and BS man to be THE SAME PERSON...

Alternatively, we accept that Smith passed at 12.35, the couple left by 12.36, by 12.38 Eagle and Lave are both back inside the club, the incident occurs, Fanny comes onto her doorstep after it’s over.

But... this doesn't feel right because Parcelman and Bs man express entirely different behaviour based on the comparison between Pc Smith's observations and that pf Schwartz.

So we are left with 2 main options from 12.43am...


IF Schwartz was true and correct, then Parcelman is BS man, who after giving her the parcel goes to leave and head north, but he is angry at Stride and then turns BACK to approach her, just as Schwartz arrives at 12.44am.
The assault then plays out and by the time Schwartz has run off after the shout of Lipski that nobody else hears, it is now 12.45am.

Bs man then walks into the yard and drags Stride out of sight at the precise moment that Mortimer opens her door at 12.45am, just 2 minutes after Pc Smith passes her door.

But hold on... how does Bs man/Parcelman escape without being seen by Mortimer?

Well, he could go back into the club?

Or he escapes by running off...but Mortimer doesn't hear anyone running off, so he can't pass her door.

He also can't pass the couple on the corner of Faircloth and Berner Street who for reason didn't hear or see anyone..including Schwartz and Pipeman.


So as you can see...


IF we are to believe Schwartz, then we must also except that in the timeframe available, there is no time for everyone to arrive and leave and conveniently miss each other.

But again...going back to 12.43am...


Now, IF we omit Schwartz entirely, then AFTER Pc Smith passes Mortimer and turns the corner, Stride and parcelman walk into the yard and he cuts her throat, and then has time to calmly leave the scene by 12.44am BEFORE Mortimer opens her door just a minute AFTER Pc Smith has passed her door.

I believe that Parcelman had planned to cut murder Stride, but Pc Smith arrives at 12.42am to delay his plans. It is a full 2 minutes later when Parcelman cuts Stride's throat in the yard. But now he is 2 minutes behind, he has no time to mutilate and is put off by the presence of Smith just a couple of minutes earlier.

Without Schwartz, there is no audible sound from Stride, no anti semitic slur shouted across the street, no drunken BS man assaulting Stride, no mad rush for everyone to clear the street before Mortimer opens her door.

The one piece of evidence that kills Schwartz's story is when Mortimer states she heard the distinctive sound of a policeman's boots as he walked past.

As a resident she would have been familiar with that sound on a regular and repeated basis.

So...


By placing Pc Smith to a more accurate time of 12.41-12.43am, it then has a knock on effect on the subsequent chain of events.

The murder of Stride was silent, quick, impulsive yet planned, and took less than 30 seconds to carry out.


As a caveat to all of this...

There IS a brief windon when Schwartz MAY have passed by and witnessed the assault on Stride...

At 12.56am

By 12.56am Stride is still with Parcelman inside the yard, away from a policeman's prying eyes.

But after 10 minutes or so of smooching in the dark, Parcelman wants more.

But Stride refuses, and possibly offends him by pulling out some cachou to sweeten her breath after kissing him, and so he walks off, but then walks back to grab Stride and take her with him, but she resists and he spins her around and throws her to the floor, all witnessed by Schwartz. the reason why she doesn't scream; because she knows him and has been kissing him for the past 10 minutes or so in the dark.

Schwartz sees the assault and runs off as Pipeman follows.

Where Pipeman goes is anyone's guess?

Now, we still have the issue that PC Smith SHOULD now be walking WEST along Faircloth Street to go past the Junction of Berner Street as he heads towards Backchurch lane. This should be circa 12.57am/12.58am

So we need Schwartz to run south own Berner Street, because if he heads East into Faircloth Street, he will be seen by Pc Smith on his beat.
We also need Pipeman to be around
We also still have that pesky couple who MAY have still been on the corner oblivius to everything that was going on.

Now, Bs man then has Stride back in the alleyway and this time he cuts her throat...at the same time Pc Smith walks past the junction. Bs Man then exits the yard, but hears Diemschultz's cart and so rushes down the alleyway just north of the board school just as the cart passes by.

That makes a kill time of 12.58am and supports Stride only just having been killed.


Of course, this suggests that BS man was the killer because IF the Schwartz incident DID happen, then the only time it COULD have happened was after 12.55am but before 12.59am and there was no time for it to have been anyone else.

But of course, being RD, i like to mix things up and think outside the box...


What IF Parcelman DIDN'T exist and when PC Smith sees Stride at 12.43am, he approaches her and propositions him? She has gone there to meet him, but he has other plans.
Pc Smith then kills her and walks calmly past Mortimer and then walks up Berner Street to continue his beat, turning left into Sanders Street and into the back alleys to check himself over before timing his clean-up time to coincide with getting back on his beat.

It then leaves Stride lying dying in the dark from 12.43am

It would then explain why NOBODY saw PC Smith where he was meant to be when he should have been passing west along Faircloth Street
It also explains why he gave an out-of-sync time of between 12.30-12.35am
It also explains why he seems to have been oblivious to anything and everything when he was told of the murder
It also explains why Schwartz's story comes across as far-fetched; him being used as a decoy for the underlying narrative and an attempt to place blame on the Jews and close down the club.

It doesn’t sound far-fetched to me RD but it’s difficult to understand how you can suggest that it is whilst suggesting Smith as a killer?


What IF Pc Smith was used as an assassin to mimic the Ripper, but Stride has nothing to do with the Ripper?


Lots of conjecture, but as you can see...the possibilities are endless


RD

I genuinely think that you are overthinking and over complicating things RD. We should have only one question - is it possible that the short Schwartz incident could have occurred without anyone seeing it? For me the answer is 100% yes. Easily so. I don’t have a second of doubt. I don’t think that the evenings events are remotely strange or mysterious. To be honest RD I don’t know why it even gets discussed. I can certainly understand trying to establish a series of timelines as Jeff, Frank and George are doing though.

For me there are only two possibilities.

1. Schwartz was mistaken as to the time and that he passed at some time before 12.30 and saw an incident which he later ‘connected’ to the murder and so convinced himself that he’d passed at 12.45.

2. The incident occurred whilst the not very helpful Fanny Mortimer was indoors and the street was deserted (not hard to imagine at 12.45 in a Whitechapel backstreet)

I could add a third - why do people think that Fanny is a good witness? We don’t know when she was on her doorstep and when she wasn’t. We have no way of knowing her times. We have no way of knowing how long she spent on her doorstep. We might as well just say - at some point in that evening Fanny Mortimer spent an unknown amount of time on her doorstep. What good is that?

And finally let’s add another one….what if Fanny was just an old busybody trying to make herself seem important? After all, Lave didn’t see her on her doorstep, Eagle walked passed her door and didn’t see her on her doorstep. And yes, Schwartz didn’t see her. I don’t get why Fanny is treated as a star witness? I never have.

[JeffHamm]

Just thought I’d jump in and give a to Jeff, George and Frank. Plenty of variations going on so it will be interesting to see which you all think are the likeliest (and whether you agree of course)

Hi Herlock,

Thanks. I always think that collaborative work is the best way to approach things, as each person will have their own methods and ideas as to how to approach a complex problem. If, however, those differences converge upon a similar solution, then that to me is a good sign. On the whole, there really isn't much difference between the time line sequences we're each presenting. George's timeline and the one I've put out are, for all intents and purposes, the same. The value of the hour:min:sec may differ, but that is simply due to the fact that each of us is "locking" our timelines to different "clocks". Given that our sequences are pretty much the same (similar order of events, and similar temporal intervals between events, etc), only the stated times differ, that just points to our clocks being out of sync with each other by about 6 minutes. Frank's timeline is also very similar, and while we differed by something like 3 minutes with regards to Fanny's vigil, much of that was due to me leaving out the patrol of Batty's Garden which accounted for the majority of our differences.

Personally, I'm not fussed about the exact GMT time reading at this point, a rose by any other name after all, but rather working out the temporal sequencing of the events and so forth. As a result, I see the three timelines as replications of each other, with the main bulk of the differences simply attributed to the choice of clock being used as the starting reference point.

- Jeff

[c.d.]

It also explains why Schwartz's story comes across as far-fetched; him being used as a decoy for the underlying narrative and an attempt to place blame on the Jews and close down the club.

I don't see it as far-fetched at all. Seems in line with a little street hassle which apparently was not uncommon on the streets of Whitechapel.

c.d.

[c.d.]

If the Club was worried about a body being found near the Club, lying about the time of discovery does nothing to solve that problem.

Good point, Fiver.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

Putting it loosely - Eagle, Lave, Parcelman and Smith were out of the picture by around 12.40. Maybe even slightly before. There was easily enough time for a short incident.

I agree that Eagle was and almost certainly Lave, but Parcelman is an unknown entity and Pc Smith could have passed as late as 12.43am, because if he passed at 12.35am, it would not fit with the timings of him having been at the top of Berner Street circa 1.07am/1.08am.

PC Smith initially states he passes at 12.30am, which is even less likely based on his being at the top of Berner Street circa 1.07am/1.08am

His beat took 25 to 30 minutes

That places him seeing Parcelman sometime between 12.37am to 12.42am

But PC Smith doesn't see Eagle or Lave, so PC Smith walks down Berner Street at 12.41am, goes to the end, and sees Stride and Parcelman at 12.41am, BUT he then turns around, passes Parcelman and Stride again at 12.42am and then walks north.

Now, that leaves Stride and Parcelman still in position at 12.42 am...

As Pc Smith walks back, he passes Mortimers door and she hears him pass at 12.42am/12.43am

So now we have

Lave gone by 12.39am - yes
Eagle gone by 12.40am - yes (but he likely passes Stride and Parcelman because when asked if he saw anyone he replied " I dare say I did"...which means...he did.
Pc Smith's beat in Berner Street 12.41am to 12.43am - yes (this corroborates BOTH Mortimer AND PC Smith being at the North of Berner Street at 1.07am-1.08am

Crucially...
Parcelman is with Stride NOT at 12.35am (because Lave doesn't see him OR Stride) he is with her LATER, ergo, at the time when Pc Smith passes between 12.41am to 12.43am.

We now have Stride and Parcelman at 12.43am and only 2 minutes BEFORE...

Mortimer claims to come to her door
Bs Man walks down Berner Street
Schwartz walks dwon Berner Street
An assault takes place
Brown sees a couple on the corner, who are allegedly at the corner of the street, and yet fails to see or hear the assault on Stride.

And...

Stride needs to move from her position on the opposite side and move over to go into the yard and OUT OF SIGHT from Mortimer.

The moment that Stride passes through the gate, she is murdered instantly.

That explains why Mortimer was standing at her door from 12.45/12.46am to 12.55/12.56am.

It doesn't matter because Stride is already dead and out of sight.


But going back to 12.43am...


Stride moves and walks through the gateway...


But, where does Parcelman go?


Now, IF we choose to believe Schwartz, then Parcelman needs to leave, Bs Man needs to walk down the street, Schwartz needs to walk down the street, the assault needs to take place, the chase needs to happen, and Bs Man needs to leave the scene BEFORE Mortimer gets to her door.

But she has just heard PC Smith pass by her door at 12.43am.

And how can he be walk north and NOT bump into BS man and Schwartz?

The only route Pc Smith can take is west through Sanders Street, passing by Mortimer and then turning left around the corner past the Letchford's house at number 30.

He then walks west through into Backchurch lane.


But going back again to 12.43am...


The moment he has gone around the corner, Schwartz then turns the cornerat the top of Berner Street and by the time he gets to see BS Man it is now 12.44am.


That means that the ONLY way that Parcelman can leave and BS Man arrive AFTER Pc Smith leaves and before Mortimer opens her door, is for Parcelman and BS man to be THE SAME PERSON...

But... this doesn't feel right because Parcelman and Bs man express entirely different behaviour based on the comparison between Pc Smith's observations and that pf Schwartz.

So we are left with 2 main options from 12.43am...


IF Schwartz was true and correct, then Parcelman is BS man, who after giving her the parcel goes to leave and head north, but he is angry at Stride and then turns BACK to approach her, just as Schwartz arrives at 12.44am.
The assault then plays out and by the time Schwartz has run off after the shout of Lipski that nobody else hears, it is now 12.45am.

Bs man then walks into the yard and drags Stride out of sight at the precise moment that Mortimer opens her door at 12.45am, just 2 minutes after Pc Smith passes her door.

But hold on... how does Bs man/Parcelman escape without being seen by Mortimer?

Well, he could go back into the club?

Or he escapes by running off...but Mortimer doesn't hear anyone running off, so he can't pass her door.

He also can't pass the couple on the corner of Faircloth and Berner Street who for reason didn't hear or see anyone..including Schwartz and Pipeman.


So as you can see...


IF we are to believe Schwartz, then we must also except that in the timeframe available, there is no time for everyone to arrive and leave and conveniently miss each other.

But again...going back to 12.43am...


Now, IF we omit Schwartz entirely, then AFTER Pc Smith passes Mortimer and turns the corner, Stride and parcelman walk into the yard and he cuts her throat, and then has time to calmly leave the scene by 12.44am BEFORE Mortimer opens her door just a minute AFTER Pc Smith has passed her door.

I believe that Parcelman had planned to cut murder Stride, but Pc Smith arrives at 12.42am to delay his plans. It is a full 2 minutes later when Parcelman cuts Stride's throat in the yard. But now he is 2 minutes behind, he has no time to mutilate and is put off by the presence of Smith just a couple of minutes earlier.

Without Schwartz, there is no audible sound from Stride, no anti semitic slur shouted across the street, no drunken BS man assaulting Stride, no mad rush for everyone to clear the street before Mortimer opens her door.

The one piece of evidence that kills Schwartz's story is when Mortimer states she heard the distinctive sound of a policeman's boots as he walked past.

As a resident she would have been familiar with that sound on a regular and repeated basis.

So...


By placing Pc Smith to a more accurate time of 12.41-12.43am, it then has a knock on effect on the subsequent chain of events.

The murder of Stride was silent, quick, impulsive yet planned, and took less than 30 seconds to carry out.


As a caveat to all of this...

There IS a brief windon when Schwartz MAY have passed by and witnessed the assault on Stride...

At 12.56am

By 12.56am Stride is still with Parcelman inside the yard, away from a policeman's prying eyes.

But after 10 minutes or so of smooching in the dark, Parcelman wants more.

But Stride refuses, and possibly offends him by pulling out some cachou to sweeten her breath after kissing him, and so he walks off, but then walks back to grab Stride and take her with him, but she resists and he spins her around and throws her to the floor, all witnessed by Schwartz. the reason why she doesn't scream; because she knows him and has been kissing him for the past 10 minutes or so in the dark.

Schwartz sees the assault and runs off as Pipeman follows.

Where Pipeman goes is anyone's guess?

Now, we still have the issue that PC Smith SHOULD now be walking WEST along Faircloth Street to go past the Junction of Berner Street as he heads towards Backchurch lane. This should be circa 12.57am/12.58am

So we need Schwartz to run south own Berner Street, because if he heads East into Faircloth Street, he will be seen by Pc Smith on his beat.
We also need Pipeman to be around
We also still have that pesky couple who MAY have still been on the corner oblivius to everything that was going on.

Now, Bs man then has Stride back in the alleyway and this time he cuts her throat...at the same time Pc Smith walks past the junction. Bs Man then exits the yard, but hears Diemschultz's cart and so rushes down the alleyway just north of the board school just as the cart passes by.

That makes a kill time of 12.58am and supports Stride only just having been killed.


Of course, this suggests that BS man was the killer because IF the Schwartz incident DID happen, then the only time it COULD have happened was after 12.55am but before 12.59am and there was no time for it to have been anyone else.

But of course, being RD, i like to mix things up and think outside the box...


What IF Parcelman DIDN'T exist and when PC Smith sees Stride at 12.43am, he approaches her and propositions him? She has gone there to meet him, but he has other plans.
Pc Smith then kills her and walks calmly past Mortimer and then walks up Berner Street to continue his beat, turning left into Sanders Street and into the back alleys to check himself over before timing his clean-up time to coincide with getting back on his beat.

It then leaves Stride lying dying in the dark from 12.43am

It would then explain why NOBODY saw PC Smith where he was meant to be when he should have been passing west along Faircloth Street
It also explains why he gave an out-of-sync time of between 12.30-12.35am
It also explains why he seems to have been oblivious to anything and everything when he was told of the murder
It also explains why Schwartz's story comes across as far-fetched; him being used as a decoy for the underlying narrative and an attempt to place blame on the Jews and close down the club.


What IF Pc Smith was used as an assassin to mimic the Ripper, but Stride has nothing to do with the Ripper?


Lots of conjecture, but as you can see...the possibilities are endless


RD

[Fiver]

If you didnt keep posting that the matter is resolved and all accounts support your contention, then I wouldnt have to wonder aloud about your capabilities. Its not resolved, and not everyone agrees with you. Now, Lets start there.

That is an inaccurate summary of Herlock's position. Getting back to the evidence:

* The majority of witnesses support Stride's body being found at around 1am. This includes Mortimer, who you incorrectly claim contradicts him.

* In spite of your claims, the only witnesses who contradict the 1am discovery time are Kozebrodsky, Hershberg, and Spooner. Kozebrodsky was a club member - apparently he didn't get the Conspiracy memo and the Conspiracy didn't care. Spooner contradicts the other two. Spooner contradicts every other witness, including Mortimer. Spooner even contradicts Spooner.

* Schwartz' testimony cannot be proven or disproven. There is no consensus on whether he was telling the truth.

* Your Jewish Socialist Conspiracy Theory is almost universally rejected. This is because it makes no sense. If the Club was worried about a body being found near the Club, lying about the time of discovery does nothing to solve that problem.

* The Ripper was good at being undetected, silencing victims, and keeping physical control of them. Schwartz' Broad-shouldered Man was rather bad at all of those. If Schwartz was telling the truth, that would be strong evidence that Stride was not killed by the Ripper. So why do you reject the witness that most strongly supports your suspect theory?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I agree...

But also when Eagle, Lave, Parcelman, PC Smith, Brown, Goldstein, Miss Letchford and the other couple were not there in the street either.

Or within earshot of hearing BS Man shout Lipski


RD

Putting it loosely - Eagle, Lave, Parcelman and Smith were out of the picture by around 12.40. Maybe even slightly before. There was easily enough time for a short incident.

[Geddy2112]

when the Ripper purposefully placed Eddowes Apron segment underneath it to highlight there was a link to Stride.

Apologies for butting in (and memory fading) but has the apron piece been categorically proven to be from Eddowes?