Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[Herlock Sholmes]

Again with changing stated times to make your point. "well, if you just throw away all the statements that disagree with Louis and his arrival time, everything works out fine".

Nice. You disregard the time given by the majority of the witnesses to accept the one that doesnt give a time anywhere close to all those. Good detectivin'. Surely police do that all the time, throw out corroborated accounts to accept the one that has none.

I genuinely don’t know how you have the nerve to make a statement like this. How can you call 3 the majority?

Diemschitz - 1.00
Mrs Diemschitz - 1.00
Minsky - 1.00
Mila - 1.00
Eagle - 1.00 (twenty minutes after returning at 12.40)
Gilleman - 1.00 (informed Eagle twenty minutes after he’d returned at 12.40)
Brown - 1.00 (heard the men calling for a Constable after he’d returned home and finished eating)
Lamb 1.00 (Met Eagle at ‘around 1.00’ which includes 1.05. Arrived 10 mins before Blackwell’s 1.16 so that 1.06)
Fanny - 1.00 (hears a horse and cart at exactly the time that Louis said he’d returned on a horse and cart)
Johnson - 1.00 (called at a few minutes past 1.00 tying up nicely with the Constable being sent for him not long after 1.05 when he arrived with Lamb)
Spooner - 1.00 (arrived at the yard 5 mins before Lamb - he was with Louis so this ties up)

You have Kozebrodsky who estimated time (which we can’t evaluate how he arrived at it) 12.45 - Jeff has shown us how human beings can easily estimate periods of time incorrectly.
And Heschberg who said “around 12.45 I should think.’ (So another unknown) and a not very confident one at that.

So two witnesses entirely out of sync 10/11 others. Then you have the useless Spooner. 12.35!! Which is a joke estimate. But ‘5 minutes before Lamb’ makes 100% sense and fits the rest of the evidence.

So I have 10 plus Spooner’s ‘5 mins before Lamb.’

You have Hesch and Koz and Spooner’s massively out estimate. THAT’S ALL.

Then you have the others who were interviewed by the police none of whom even remotely tipped the balance away from a 1.00 discovery time.

You should concede that you are wrong. I’ve provided the evidence without inventions. You are chasing a lost cause by making up your own version of reality. It’s why no one agrees with your plot theory Michael (I may have mentioned that before.)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Only you would challenge a statement like "Lamb, Eagle and Issac Kozebrodski could not have returned together at around 1am to the club if Louis first arrived after 1." Lamb said around 1, Louis says he arrived at 1. So how does Eagle know before Liz has even been found that there is a need to go for help?

I guess you imagine that the minute Louis finds her, Eagle is already at Commercial and Issac has already searched in vain before meeting with Eagle. I am surprised that this even needs reiterating, its so bleeding obvious. Lamb is trustworthy, Louis needs to establish trust....Lamb hears about the body around 1, Louis says he didnt arrive until 1. That is not establishing a trustworthy witness, its a sign that the witness isnt trustworthy.

But back your own horse in the race...by all means.....I really dont care if you agree with me or not. I do care when the facts and what I say are misrepresented...so stop posting tripe you claim I said. You obviously dont understand the basic concepts, and you sure dont know what logical debates consist of. And you surely cannot capsulize anyone elses stated positions with integrity.

You said “you say that Lamb, Issac Kozebrodski and Eagle could be arriving at the gates AS Louis arrives?”

And I replied: “ You can’t seriously think that I’m proposing that so I can’t see why you bothered to write it .”

How could you think that’s what I thought? I’ve never said it or even hinted at it.

It appears that you’re doing your usual trick on timings. Lamb said AROUND 1.00. Which isn’t synonymous with “precisely 1.00” in anyone else’s world. So I’ll repeat for what feels like the thousandth time..

Louis arrived at 1.00. Lamb, Eagle and Koz arrived around 5 minutes or so later. 1.05 is ‘around 1.00.’

Can you really not get this Michael? I’m beginning to wonder.

[Michael W Richards]

Kozebrodsky, Heschberg and Spooner (his 12.35 but not his ‘5 minutes before Lamb’ of course) were simply mistaken in their estimations. The police at the time knew and we know it.

Again with changing stated times to make your point. "well, if you just throw away all the statements that disagree with Louis and his arrival time, everything works out fine".

Nice. You disregard the time given by the majority of the witnesses to accept the one that doesnt give a time anywhere close to all those. Good detectivin'. Surely police do that all the time, throw out corroborated accounts to accept the one that has none.

[Michael W Richards]

And all of this to defend a plan that’s been thoroughly trashed. It would be good if you could stick to individual points and respond to them instead of the scattergun approach that you employ.

Only you would challenge a statement like "Lamb, Eagle and Issac Kozebrodski could not have returned together at around 1am to the club if Louis first arrived after 1." Lamb said around 1, Louis says he arrived at 1. So how does Eagle know before Liz has even been found that there is a need to go for help?

I guess you imagine that the minute Louis finds her, Eagle is already at Commercial and Issac has already searched in vain before meeting with Eagle. I am surprised that this even needs reiterating, its so bleeding obvious. Lamb is trustworthy, Louis needs to establish trust....Lamb hears about the body around 1, Louis says he didnt arrive until 1. That is not establishing a trustworthy witness, its a sign that the witness isnt trustworthy.

But back your own horse in the race...by all means.....I really dont care if you agree with me or not. I do care when the facts and what I say are misrepresented...so stop posting tripe you claim I said. You obviously dont understand the basic concepts, and you sure dont know what logical debates consist of. And you surely cannot capsulize anyone elses stated positions with integrity.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It also creates a rather large problem to suggest it was someone else in their pony and cart that she heard as it would mean that she heard a pony and cart go by that just so happens to have passed at a time that corresponds to when Deimshutz lies about when he went by (I'll call it the "coincidental cart"). And yet, she didn't see Deimshutz go by in his pony and cart much earlier, despite her claiming to have been on her doorstep nearly the whole time. Although one might try "he went by during her going inside briefly, since she said 'nearly the whole time'", that begs the question of why she didn't hear Deimshutz's pony and cart earlier given she can hear the coincidental cart (and yet, being inside is not accepted as the reason for her not hearing the much quieter 3 calls Stride is supposed to have made - I've used calls because the phrase "scream but not very loudly" creates semantic confusion; something got lost in translation I think).

Also, if everyone is supposed to be around the body earlier, as per Spooner let's say, then that places PC Lamb there much earlier as Spooner indicates PC Lamb arrives about 5 minutes after he does. But why doesn't PC Lamb not take note of Deimshutz's obvious fabrication of the time? And where are the witness statements concerning this coincidental cart, as it would have gone right passed the yard where everyone is gathered round? Nobody ever mentions it, and yet at times the location of Deimshutz's pony and cart gets raised as an issue despite him saying he moved it up further into the yard.

To suggest that the pony and cart that she reports hearing at 1ish is someone other than Deimshutz creates a huge amount of conflict, requires a very large coincidence (Deimshutz luckily picked that time for his arrival, which somehow she does not either see or hear - was he in stealth mode?), and it also gets worse if we include Spooner's time as PC Lamb must then be at the scene long before the time he states, and long after the time Deimshutz says he arrived!

- Jeff

And the emboldened point above is a valuable one which tends to get lost (or glossed over) It goes without saying that the police knew far more than we do and that they weren’t complete idiots; they wanted this man caught. They interviewed all of the club members and the staff plus the neighbours plus those that lived in Berner Street (and probably Fairclough Street and others) and this resulted in them having no doubts about what time the body was discovered. Why didn’t they question the 1.00 discovery time in light of Kozebrodsky, Heschberg and Spooner? Who knows what snippets were available to them but don’t survive or weren’t made a big deal of. As they had Diemschitz statement and Fanny saying that she’d heard a horse and cart how do we know that someone else in Berner Street didn’t say that they also heard, or even saw, Diemschitz pass? How do we know that someone in Fairclough Street didn’t look out of their window and see him and Kozebrodsky running along at just after 1.00?

Another important point is this - The suggestion is that the club members were involved in a plot, the crux of which was to fool the police into thinking that the body was found at 1.00 rather than 20 minutes or so earlier. This would have meant ensuring that they were all ‘on message’ of course. It’s plot creation step one - ensure that everyone knows what’s going on so that they can’t inadvertently spill the beans. The only person that we have specific evidence of Louis being close to is Kozebrodsky, as he went looking for a Constable with him, so how is it even remotely possible that Louis couldn’t have got him ‘on message.’ Did he forget to tell him about the plan? Was he deaf and didn’t hear the part about the body being found at 1.00? Did Kozebrodsky have a terrible memory?

Kozebrodsky, Heschberg and Spooner (his 12.35 but not his ‘5 minutes before Lamb’ of course) were simply mistaken in their estimations. The police at the time knew and we know it.

[JeffHamm]

Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Actually Mortimer confirms she heard a cart and horse while inside her house, its you folks that automatically have put Louis on that cart, not her.

--------------------------------------

That is a provably false statement on your part.

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband." - 1 October 1888 Evening News

This fact has been repeatedly pointed out to you. You ignoring it does not make it go away.

It also creates a rather large problem to suggest it was someone else in their pony and cart that she heard as it would mean that she heard a pony and cart go by that just so happens to have passed at a time that corresponds to when Deimshutz lies about when he went by (I'll call it the "coincidental cart"). And yet, she didn't see Deimshutz go by in his pony and cart much earlier, despite her claiming to have been on her doorstep nearly the whole time. Although one might try "he went by during her going inside briefly, since she said 'nearly the whole time'", that begs the question of why she didn't hear Deimshutz's pony and cart earlier given she can hear the coincidental cart (and yet, being inside is not accepted as the reason for her not hearing the much quieter 3 calls Stride is supposed to have made - I've used calls because the phrase "scream but not very loudly" creates semantic confusion; something got lost in translation I think).

Also, if everyone is supposed to be around the body earlier, as per Spooner let's say, then that places PC Lamb there much earlier as Spooner indicates PC Lamb arrives about 5 minutes after he does. But why doesn't PC Lamb not take note of Deimshutz's obvious fabrication of the time? And where are the witness statements concerning this coincidental cart, as it would have gone right passed the yard where everyone is gathered round? Nobody ever mentions it, and yet at times the location of Deimshutz's pony and cart gets raised as an issue despite him saying he moved it up further into the yard.

To suggest that the pony and cart that she reports hearing at 1ish is someone other than Deimshutz creates a huge amount of conflict, requires a very large coincidence (Deimshutz luckily picked that time for his arrival, which somehow she does not either see or hear - was he in stealth mode?), and it also gets worse if we include Spooner's time as PC Lamb must then be at the scene long before the time he states, and long after the time Deimshutz says he arrived!

- Jeff

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Hi all


My apologies


I made a typo in the post quoted above.


I was meant to state that IF Schwartz was asked to attend the Inquest, then he WAS legally required to do so.


Not important in the grand scheme of things, but still important to right a written wrong.


For some reason I had mistakenly written the direct opposite; not sure why but I will put it down to fatigue as an excuse.


If there's one thing that really grates on me; it's when I make a typo and then don't edit the post in time, so that it reads completely wrong.



My apologies


RD

Hi RD,

The Coroners Act was discussed a bit around here:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/witnesses/751019-if-schwartz-lied?p=754499#post754499

[Fiver]

Actually Mortimer confirms she heard a cart and horse while inside her house, its you folks that automatically have put Louis on that cart, not her.

That is a provably false statement on your part.

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband." - 1 October 1888 Evening News

This fact has been repeatedly pointed out to you. You ignoring it does not make it go away.

[Herlock Sholmes]

"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up." - 1 October 1888 Irish Times.

And I'm fairly sure that Isaacs being Kozebrodsky has been pointed out to you. Repeatedly.

It has Fiver. And recently. Ignored as inconvenient as usual though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Let me just be sure I understand you....you say that Lamb, Issac Kozebrodski and Eagle could be arriving at the gates AS Louis arrives? Then why are Eagle and Issac running around for help, if the body hasnt even been discovered yet? Im an shocked that I have to repeat this to you. Its not that hard a question, can a search part look for help, find help, and return to the original location if no=one has told them about a body yet?

You can’t seriously think that I’m proposing that so I can’t see why you bothered to write it. I’ve explained this numerous times Michael but you simply don’t wish to acknowledge it so you post as if I’ve never said it. So, again.

We can’t know how accurate or synchronised any clocks were and we can’t assume that estimates were accurate. This should go without saying but I constantly find myself having to repeat this.

Louis sees the Bakers Clock which said 1.00 (if we could check another clock at the time it might have said 12.55 or 12.57 or 1.03 this is why quibbling is utterly pointless) So Louis finds the body at 1.00 (Bakers clock time) he goes inside and comes back out and decides to go for a Constable. I and pretty much everyone else accepts that this would have taken 2 minutes or less. You disagree but the point is that none of us can estimate and exact time. He and Kozebrodsky go looking for a Constable.

Eagle doesn’t go at the same time. We know that Eagle only found out about the body from Gilleman so we have to ask ourselves is it likely that after Gilleman heard about the body from Louis he went straight upstairs? I’d suggest that this is highly unlikely and that he’d have first gone outside to look at the body. Then, at some point, whether he himself made the decision or whether someone said that those members upstairs should be informed, he then goes upstairs and tells the members, including Eagle. So if there was a gap of say 90 seconds or 2 minutes between Gilleman seeing the body and Eagle getting into the yard and deciding to go for a Constable then it would coincide with Kozebrodsky returning from the short journey into Fairclough Street. So Koz decides to go with Eagle to find a Constable. They find Lamb and return to the yard. Spooners ‘5 minutes before Lamb’ estimate was longer than it actually was. Probably 2 or 3 minutes.


Now would be the time for you to suggest changing everyones timing to match Louis's obvious lie he arrived at "precisely" 1.I keep writing prescisely.......witnesses generally dont stamp their times in stone, some like Louis did. Or Mrs Long. But neither are more believeable because they say they were "sure". Provably, Louis didnt arrive at 1, without any other witness contradictions than just Lambs.

If we’re sticking to times as you suggest then that must mean the body was found at 12.30 (as Spooner arrived at 12.35 apparently) and that Brown only heard the ghosts of men shouting for a Constable at around 1.00?

A little consistency would be appreciated Michael. First you don’t accept allowing for a margin for error, then you do (when it suits you), then you don’t, then you do (when it suits you) and now you are again complaining about this.

Louis said ‘precisely’ because the clock that he saw said ‘precisely’ 1.00 and he knew that he’d arrived at the club within a minute of seeing it. To call this use of ‘precisely’ as a lie is probably, no definitely, the most desperate thing I’ve heard in 35 years of interest in the case. I’m tired of having to respond to it.

There are no timing issues as long as you don’t do two things. 1. You don’t try and stretch out events to ludicrous lengths like Louis being at the yard 10 minutes before going for a Constable which is a clear distortion as all but you can see, and 2. That you don’t ignore the majority of witnesses in favour of Kozebrodsky, Heschberg and half of Spooner’s statement.


.

And all of this to defend a plan that’s been thoroughly trashed. It would be good if you could stick to individual points and respond to them instead of the scattergun approach that you employ.

[Fiver]

. Edward Spooner says he thought he accompanied Louis and some other member, (who is on record as being Issac[s]"), not Issac Kozebrodski...

"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up." - 1 October 1888 Irish Times.

And I'm fairly sure that Isaacs being Kozebrodsky has been pointed out to you. Repeatedly.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And we (Herlock and I and possibly other posters) are still waiting to hear how you know this for a fact and were able to eliminate any other possible reason.

c.d.

The problem is c.d. that we won’t get a proper. Michael just keeps repeating ‘he wasn’t called therefore the police didn’t trust him.’ It’s not true and it makes no sense but that’s what we get.

[Herlock Sholmes]

He wasnt asked. Or called. Or however you wish to categorize it. His evidence was deemed not of value in determining how Liz Stride dies.....considering his story is about her being visibly assaulted within minutes of her murder, a few steps from its location, and just around the earliest cut time of Blackwell...hard to imagine why they wouldnt see that as valuable. But clearly, they didnt.

It’s not hard to imagine at all. He didn’t see her actually being killed and the cause of death came from the Doctor alone. How was Schwartz qualified to comment on the cause of death?

[c.d.]

He wasnt asked. Or called. Or however you wish to categorize it. His evidence was deemed not of value in determining how Liz Stride dies.....considering his story is about her being visibly assaulted within minutes of her murder, a few steps from its location, and just around the earliest cut time of Blackwell...hard to imagine why they wouldnt see that as valuable. But clearly, they didnt.

And we (Herlock and I and possibly other posters) are still waiting to hear how you know this for a fact and were able to eliminate any other possible reason.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Yes they could and not only could they, they did.

I have no worries about defending reality against someone who believes something that no one else does. We’re still waiting for that one brave soul to pop up and say “there was a plot.” Perhaps we’re being too impatient for him or her to show up? It’s only been 20 years after all.

Let me just be sure I understand you....you say that Lamb, Issac Kozebrodski and Eagle could be arriving at the gates AS Louis arrives? Then why are Eagle and Issac running around for help, if the body hasnt even been discovered yet? Im an shocked that I have to repeat this to you. Its not that hard a question, can a search part look for help, find help, and return to the original location if no=one has told them about a body yet?

Now would be the time for you to suggest changing everyones timing to match Louis's obvious lie he arrived at "precisely" 1.I keep writing prescisely.......witnesses generally dont stamp their times in stone, some like Louis did. Or Mrs Long. But neither are more believeable because they say they were "sure". Provably, Louis didnt arrive at 1, without any other witness contradictions than just Lambs.