Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

past tense

Hello DLDW.

"So CID or Special Branch were watching the club."

Possibly. But, as I noted above, surveillance likely ended when the main meeting broke up.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

searching

Hello Cris. Thanks.

"She had been hauled in front of the magistrate 7 times in 3 years for drunk and disorderly conduct."

Yes. But one, perhaps, was under a putative alias?

"One of those charges included soliciting for prostitution."

Still looking for that one. Perhaps it will turn up.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Its in Neal Sheldon's book, which I presume you have a copy? His reference was the Thames Magistrate Court records. Also in Mr. Yost's book, same reference, same records.

[lynn cates]

"If at first you don't suceed. . ."

Hello Cris. Thanks.

I should have been clearer. Yes, I know it is in the book. I'll try again to locate that record.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

[QUOTE=Investigator;269668]

Hello Stewart,
On the Mortimer post you wrote this;
Stride ...She was a known casual prostitute of the same type as the other victims, it was well after midnight and she was 'hanging about' on the street, and there are witness reports that seem to indicate she was soliciting. Not least of all the police stated that she was a prostitute. Common sense would seem to dictate that she was soliciting.

Unfortunately describing social behavior with a broad brush label loses both detail and precision. Such terms as sexual maniac, insane, prostitute and psychiatric labels are notorious in their elasticity. In scientific experimentation we like to pin things down into variables that describe the object under examination. So what would enable us to identify whether a person was selling sex for money?

(1) She, (it could also be He) would presumably show outward signs of availability, an indicator of her business. Wearing something provocative in clothing, a shortened dress or perhaps a coloured scarf, maybe carrying a cane or bag.
(2) One could expect she would place herself in a position where she could be noticed in a location with plenty of potential customers, outside a pub or club or walk casually alone up and down a main road. The location would be consistent with and support prostitution.
(3) She would be seen to be accosted by men periodically then, vanish from the pitch for short periods only to return to the original spot. There would be periods when she was alone on the street waiting for something to happen.
(4) When she was seen with a man, they would be different men on each observation and of short duration.
(5) She would be known by others who also practiced prostitution.

There may be other characteristics that indicate a prostitute since circumstances are many and varied and individuals will have idiosyncratic needs.

So how does Elisabeth Stride stack up against these variables?

(A1) Blackwell seemed to think her clothing had something of the "unfortunate "about it. On the other hand there were others, like Diemshitz who thought her respectable. That she wore a check scarf may have been an indicator, even the white flower. Some of these could be London specific. Her general clothing certainly didn’t have anything out of the ordinary. That she wore no knickers is of no consequence since most women of the period, particularly the poor, continued the childhood practice for convenience and what was then regarded as hygiene. Many petticoats substituted.

(A2) She was first seen in pub, and last seen outside a club but in different locations. Neither location would seem outstandingly populated with clientele. However, Berner Street was not a location consistent with prostitution, it was a poor residential area and P .C. Smith confirms this.
“There are very few prostitutes or people who hang about Berner St.” Wess, at the inquest states “…never see low women about Berner street, nor in the yard …” Likewise the Evening News 1 Oct 1888 writes, “….there is not the slightest tittle of evidence to show that the yard in question has been habitually used for immoral purposes. In fact, the traffic there is too great and too constant to allow of that secrecy, which is the companion of immorality.”

(A3) Nobody witnessed her alone then being accosted and her movements were distinctly directional as if Berner Street Club was her destination. She was “loitering” in company with a man.

(A4) From the Carpenters Arms to Packers shop, she was with the same man as identified by police procedure of mug shots. There were not multiple clients.
“… a number of sketches were prepared, portraying men of different nationalities, ages, and ranks of life. These were submitted to Packer, who unhesitatingly selected one of these … Further, in order to remove all doubt, and, if possible, to obtain a still better visible guidance, Packer was shewn a considerable collection of photographs, and from these, after careful inspection, he picked out one which corresponded in all important respects to the sketch”….. the description of the supposed murderer given by Packer has been confirmed by another man, who without being aware of the fact, also chose from the sketches the one which had already been selected by Packer. … two men, who it may be supposed, have actually conversed with the alleged murderer, …” East London Advertiser. 13 Oct 88

(A5) The body of Stride was shown at the mortuary; “During the day several women of the unfortunate class saw the body, but failed to identify it'. 'At a late hour last night...A female known as "One-armed Liz… recognised the body as that of Annie Morris...” There is no reason to believe that Stride went by that name nor was she recognized as a regular prostitute.

(A+) While there are various ways that sexual activity can be conducted it is curious that no victim of the Whitechapel series was detected with signs of vaginal copulation. The absence of “connection” was reported only in 3 cases, one of which was Stride. “He could not find out that any person a short time previous to the deceased's death had had connection with her.” The scientific capability to detect seminal fluid and sperm was available at the time. Contraception was beyond the pocket of all but the rich and running water was decidedly not readily available.

Summary; “... if a woman once errs, ... the lapse is seldom forgiven. The old Roman law, "...Once a prostitute, always a prostitute,..." Sanger p348
While Stride may have been a “casual prostitute” the evidence does not support a contention that she was soliciting on the night she met her death. With all the Ripper attributed victims, I think it misleading and diversionary to explain all victims in terms of prostitution. It would enable a more reliable analysis of social behaviour by using words less loaded with moral rectitude.
Thomas Bates probably sums up Elisabeth’s situation better than most. “…Her usual occupation was that of a charwoman, and it was only when driven to extremities that she walked the streets. "Lor' bless you, when she could get no work she had to do the best she could for her living, but a neater and a cleaner woman never lived." This is destitution, not prostitution.
Best Regards, D.G.

Hi investigator.
I generally agree. However, I think you left out the most important fact that points to her not solicitating. That is she was seen in the company of a man as described by the various witnesses as wearing a peaked cap so it seems that she was probably walking around with one man over a relatively long period of time. Not the behavior of a woman who was actively solicitating at the time I would think.

[lynn cates]

Only here for the beer.

Hello Abby. If it were one man, I'd agree. Of course, some think she was all night soliciting one man, and only for the drinks.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

..... the evidence does not support a contention that she was soliciting on the night she met her death. With all the Ripper attributed victims, I think it misleading and diversionary to explain all victims in terms of prostitution. It would enable a more reliable analysis of social behaviour by using words less loaded with moral rectitude.
Thomas Bates probably sums up Elisabeth’s situation better than most. “…Her usual occupation was that of a charwoman, and it was only when driven to extremities that she walked the streets. "Lor' bless you, when she could get no work she had to do the best she could for her living, but a neater and a cleaner woman never lived." This is destitution, not prostitution.
Best Regards, D.G.

Hi DG,

Although Id agree with the broad strokes of your encapsulated remarks above, I think the case in point is most relevant in at least some of the Canonical victims murders. In Mary Ann Nichols case she stated that she had "earned" her doss several times over but had drank the proceeds instead of paying for her bed. That doesnt seem to sync with a desperate woman who only resorts to solicitation when no other recourse for her bed and food exists. Mary Ann seems to be financing a drinking outing, not looking after Maslow's Hierarchy. Annie told her friend that she better shape up and earn some money for her doss, indicating that she might be better categorized as an "Unfortunate" based on her behavior,...moreso than Mary Ann at least, but she seems to have been soliciting when she meets her killer.

That may well be a signature. Actively working street women. Alone by necessity, likely soliciting for the same reason, and in those 2 cases the women were impaired in some fashion...Polly by alcohol, Annie by illness. Weak, defenseless, and early in the Fall and before the headlines were screaming out about the mad killer daily. They may not have had the same kind of fear that perhaps Kate or Mary would have, being at the end of a list that Fall. That might have led, in conjunction with their circumstances, to a dangerous liaison.

When it comes to the question of whether any Canonical was actively soliciting when they met their killer I think its essential we see or hear evidence for it. From other witnesses. No-one came forward later to claim a tete a tete with Liz on that night, or to being solicited by Kate. Neither witness told anyone else, to our knowledge, that they were seeking to "earn" their doss on that particular night. In fact in Strides case she had earned enough for her bed that afternoon doing charring work, and Kate seems to have found enough money to get drunk enough to be publicly embarrassing...even though we have no knowledge of that source. We do know however that she was in that condition too early in the evening to be considered as a result of street "earnings", not at 8pm.

Mary Kelly, to the best of our knowledge, was believed to have been at home in bed when she is attacked, since we have no record of Mary ever having brought a client to that room, in her name, it appears unlikely she was "earning" at the time.

If you see a string of five murders by one hand, then you have to consider the method of acquisition a critical investigative element to each of the cases. When there is deviation....and in these cases there is apparently...and when there is deviation in some foundational characteristics gleaned from the activities undertaken in previous murders, until more evidence becomes available,... then you have to separate those crimes from an assumed "group" or series.

Some guy we call BSM could well have murdered Liz Stride, although I have my doubts about how and when he appears, because there is no forethought to that murder, and no afterthought. There is just a murder.

In the preceding 2 murders, there was a plan... however fluid it may have been, first... whom to seek out, and secondly, a desire to mutilate the body after the murder.

Best regards

[Cogidubnus]

A natural end of thread if ever I saw one...

Dave

[Investigator]

[QUOTE=Stewart P Evans;269681]It's fine to theorise and interpret with minimal evidence and with no practical experience of the subject in question.

Hello Stewart, Perhaps you are making assumptions, not evidence.
I do not doubt the Swanson applied a broad brush on prostitutes, such was the moral rectitude of the times. Which as you know delayed police investigations on the early Whitechapel murders until puiblic opinion after Chapman.

There is no evidence that Stride was soliciting on the last few hours before her murder, unless of course you know otherwise.
I have been visiting Casebook almost from its inception, when 2 disertations and Yost and Viper were regulars.
Since then the question of the Stride killing has been revisited almost on a monthly basis without any conclusions taking hold. Like you, I find it exasperating to see this regurgitation ad nausia.
What I have provided is a string of events applying a common scientific method that tests the assumption of a specific behaviour e.g. soliciting. The evidence fails to support the descriptive components of prostitution during the period between the Carpenters Arms and Berner Street club. I have not asserted she does not revert to prostitution. But the evidence DOES indicate she was not soliciting during that period.
Other victims in the series were clearly prostitutes either by admission or behaviour.
Furthermore, the "evidence" has a bearing on her motivation in Berner Street that night and also provides links to show that Schwartz was not present during the events which he describes.
Sticking to the age old theme has show itself fruitless over the years - something must be amiss with the "facts" as they stand. A lot of brain hours have been expended on this forum and not developed any unravelling of events
You have your own opinion, and I respect that, but unfortunately for the past 15 years this forum has been unable to raise Stride from the dead.
It may be realised by some that what I am putting forward is a new, evidenced based approach that has been some years in the making.
But like anything new in the meat market the hyenas get there first.
Good hunting D.G.

[harry]

If Schwartz was not present, and did not see the things he said he saw,then are we to assume That BS wa s not present,nor Pipeman,nor Stride,at least ,in her case, at the time stated by Schwartz.She was certainly found dead in the yard, about oneAM.What evidence supports a different set of circumstances?

[DVV]

There is no evidence that Stride was soliciting on the last few hours before her murder, unless of course you know otherwise.

I agree she wasn't raising a placard announcing the price of the trick.

[Garry Wroe]

Its possible that he had the knife in his right hand (over her right shoulder)and they were both facing into the yard. He slit her throat as he pushed her forwards (turning her towards the wall) He then went round to her feet and faced towards the road to see Scwartz pass by. With a big shove by the gate , she could have ended up where she was found ?

The bloodflow from the throat incision was such that the wound must have been inflicted whilst Stride was in a horizontal or near-horizontal position, Pat. In other words there was little or no movement of the body between the throat cutting and Diemschutz's arrival on the scene.

[lynn cates]

evidence

Hello Harry.

"What evidence supports a different set of circumstances?"

Well, the IWMEC claimed she died about 12.45. Surely that is evidence?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Garry

The bloodflow from the throat incision was such that the wound must have been inflicted whilst Stride was in a horizontal or near-horizontal position, Pat. In other words there was little or no movement of the body between the throat cutting and Diemschutz's arrival on the scene.

Don't know that the bloodflow pattern, (such as we know of it), would preclude her throat being cut on the way down Garry..."There was a quantity of clotted blood beneath the body" per Blackwell...so she could've fallen on it...interestingly, Blackwell also states there was no blood on any part of the clothing, which appears to preclude the clothing soaking up blood from the later part of the bleed out...don't know how to reconcile this though with the left side of the body being plastered in mud..

Hello Lynn

Well, the IWMEC claimed she died about 12.45.

Well Arbeter Fraint does in the 5th October edition, well after the event, when every other Tom Dick and Harry have publicly expressed their views on the timing, so it might well be a derived view...I'm not aware anybody else from the IWMEC openly stated this as an opinion though, or have I missed something?

All the best

Dave

[Garry Wroe]

Don't know that the bloodflow pattern, (such as we know of it), would preclude her throat being cut on the way down Garry..."There was a quantity of clotted blood beneath the body" per Blackwell...so she could've fallen on it...interestingly, Blackwell also states there was no blood on any part of the clothing, which appears to preclude the clothing soaking up blood from the later part of the bleed out...don't know how to reconcile this though with the left side of the body being plastered in mud.

I was responding, Dave, to the suggestion that Stride’s throat was cut whilst she was on the street. This couldn’t have happened. The medicos were quite explicit: the bloodflow had not traversed the vertical axis of the body. It had run laterally from and in line with the neck incision. Had she been standing or even falling when this wound was inflicted the blood would have tracked downwards across her chest. Trusting to the available medical evidence, therefore, Stride was lying on the ground when the throat was cut and her body was not moved to any appreciable extent before Diemschutz happened on the scene.

It is for this reason that I believe Stride entered the yard consensually with Broad Shoulders. I think she knew him (hence the ‘quiet screams’ as recollected by Schwartz), didn’t for a moment suspect that she was about to be killed, and probably took the cachous from her pocket as a peace offering whilst the two stood talking in the darkness of the yard.