Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Investigator

Please pardon me for butting in, but

Thanks for the reply, I have no issue with establishing that the F.P.goes off at 01.00 since it sets the time that the two Berner boys met Lamb. This logically shifts the commencement of the search to 12.45 - 12.50

Sorry but no it doesn't...the point where the two club members meet the policemen is "in Commercial Road between Christian Street and Batty Street". This is still quite close to the scene of the crime. You may find the map on Page 125 of CSI Whitechapel is particularly helpful in this respect. It's at most four or five minutes from the club....

I also note that some question the Arbeter Fraint article. What is to be gained for them to make a public claim of a delay in finding the police?

Because this is a Socialist/Anarchist magazine which sees the Police Force as servants of the Capitalist State. It will try to do everything in its power to criticise/undermine them...

All the best

Dave

[Investigator]

[QUOTE=Stewart P Evans;269198]
Hello Stewart,
On the Mortimer post you wrote this;
Stride ...She was a known casual prostitute of the same type as the other victims, it was well after midnight and she was 'hanging about' on the street, and there are witness reports that seem to indicate she was soliciting. Not least of all the police stated that she was a prostitute. Common sense would seem to dictate that she was soliciting.

Unfortunately describing social behavior with a broad brush label loses both detail and precision. Such terms as sexual maniac, insane, prostitute and psychiatric labels are notorious in their elasticity. In scientific experimentation we like to pin things down into variables that describe the object under examination. So what would enable us to identify whether a person was selling sex for money?

(1) She, (it could also be He) would presumably show outward signs of availability, an indicator of her business. Wearing something provocative in clothing, a shortened dress or perhaps a coloured scarf, maybe carrying a cane or bag.
(2) One could expect she would place herself in a position where she could be noticed in a location with plenty of potential customers, outside a pub or club or walk casually alone up and down a main road. The location would be consistent with and support prostitution.
(3) She would be seen to be accosted by men periodically then, vanish from the pitch for short periods only to return to the original spot. There would be periods when she was alone on the street waiting for something to happen.
(4) When she was seen with a man, they would be different men on each observation and of short duration.
(5) She would be known by others who also practiced prostitution.

There may be other characteristics that indicate a prostitute since circumstances are many and varied and individuals will have idiosyncratic needs.

So how does Elisabeth Stride stack up against these variables?

(A1) Blackwell seemed to think her clothing had something of the "unfortunate "about it. On the other hand there were others, like Diemshitz who thought her respectable. That she wore a check scarf may have been an indicator, even the white flower. Some of these could be London specific. Her general clothing certainly didn’t have anything out of the ordinary. That she wore no knickers is of no consequence since most women of the period, particularly the poor, continued the childhood practice for convenience and what was then regarded as hygiene. Many petticoats substituted.

(A2) She was first seen in pub, and last seen outside a club but in different locations. Neither location would seem outstandingly populated with clientele. However, Berner Street was not a location consistent with prostitution, it was a poor residential area and P .C. Smith confirms this.
“There are very few prostitutes or people who hang about Berner St.” Wess, at the inquest states “…never see low women about Berner street, nor in the yard …” Likewise the Evening News 1 Oct 1888 writes, “….there is not the slightest tittle of evidence to show that the yard in question has been habitually used for immoral purposes. In fact, the traffic there is too great and too constant to allow of that secrecy, which is the companion of immorality.”

(A3) Nobody witnessed her alone then being accosted and her movements were distinctly directional as if Berner Street Club was her destination. She was “loitering” in company with a man.

(A4) From the Carpenters Arms to Packers shop, she was with the same man as identified by police procedure of mug shots. There were not multiple clients.
“… a number of sketches were prepared, portraying men of different nationalities, ages, and ranks of life. These were submitted to Packer, who unhesitatingly selected one of these … Further, in order to remove all doubt, and, if possible, to obtain a still better visible guidance, Packer was shewn a considerable collection of photographs, and from these, after careful inspection, he picked out one which corresponded in all important respects to the sketch”….. the description of the supposed murderer given by Packer has been confirmed by another man, who without being aware of the fact, also chose from the sketches the one which had already been selected by Packer. … two men, who it may be supposed, have actually conversed with the alleged murderer, …” East London Advertiser. 13 Oct 88

(A5) The body of Stride was shown at the mortuary; “During the day several women of the unfortunate class saw the body, but failed to identify it'. 'At a late hour last night...A female known as "One-armed Liz… recognised the body as that of Annie Morris...” There is no reason to believe that Stride went by that name nor was she recognized as a regular prostitute.

(A+) While there are various ways that sexual activity can be conducted it is curious that no victim of the Whitechapel series was detected with signs of vaginal copulation. The absence of “connection” was reported only in 3 cases, one of which was Stride. “He could not find out that any person a short time previous to the deceased's death had had connection with her.” The scientific capability to detect seminal fluid and sperm was available at the time. Contraception was beyond the pocket of all but the rich and running water was decidedly not readily available.

Summary; “... if a woman once errs, ... the lapse is seldom forgiven. The old Roman law, "...Once a prostitute, always a prostitute,..." Sanger p348
While Stride may have been a “casual prostitute” the evidence does not support a contention that she was soliciting on the night she met her death. With all the Ripper attributed victims, I think it misleading and diversionary to explain all victims in terms of prostitution. It would enable a more reliable analysis of social behaviour by using words less loaded with moral rectitude.
Thomas Bates probably sums up Elisabeth’s situation better than most. “…Her usual occupation was that of a charwoman, and it was only when driven to extremities that she walked the streets. "Lor' bless you, when she could get no work she had to do the best she could for her living, but a neater and a cleaner woman never lived." This is destitution, not prostitution.
Best Regards, D.G.

[Hunter]

Well I doubt she was charring at that late hour, but she certainly was on the street; no man for support. Swanson would not have described her as a prostitute and then surmise about her activities leading up to her murder for no reason. He was relying on reports from Abberline and Reid to make his summary. They knew the area and many of the people in it. But some of us are smarter than they are?

[lynn cates]

security

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Your version seems not terribly dissimilar to Rob Clack's--but I hate to speak for another.

Not sure about the security guard aspect. Did the club even hire such?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

get up

Hello Investigator, Cris. The local cops thought she was a prostitute due to her "get up." Flower, perhaps?

Cheers.
LC

[Paddy]

Henry Cox's memoire

Great Uncle Henry Cox mentions following a suspect. He mentions him going down to St George in the East and meeting a drunk woman. The area must have had a few characters.

When darkness set in I saw him come forth from the door of his little shop and glance furtively around to see if he were being watched. I allowed him to get right out of the street before I left the house, and then I set off after him. I followed him to Leman Street, and there I saw him enter a shop which I knew was the abode of a number of criminals well known to the police. He did not stay long. For about a quarter of an hour I hung about keeping my eye on the door, and at last I was rewarded by seeing him emerging alone. He made his way down to St George's in the East End, and there to my astonishment I saw him stop and speak to a drunken woman. I crouched in a doorway and held my breath. Was he going to throw himself right into my waiting arms?

Pat.........................

One other thing that struck me was that when reading about Alice McKenzie it was stated that she worked for the Jewish people at a late hour. I wonder if Liz did this too and what kind of domestic work it might be at such a late hour?...see attached

[Wickerman]

Great Uncle Henry Cox mentions following a suspect.

He mentions him going down to St George in the East and meeting a drunk woman. The area must have had a few characters. He made his way down to St George's in the East End, and there to my astonishment I saw him stop and speak to a drunken woman. I crouched in a doorway and held my breath. Was he going to throw himself right into my waiting arms? [/I]

Henry Cox ...was Pipeman?

[Paddy]

That would be something wouldn't it....

Ha Ha ! Right place wrong time

Henry said he followed this chap after the last murder. He didnt say which murder. He said that he and some others were on an undercover operation opposite some Jewish shops, watching the suspect.
As their cover story was that they were inspectors checking for underage workers that were used by the Sweaters, I assume they were tailor shops or factories.

I wonder why the club wasnt being watched by police the night Liz got killed?

Pat.............................

[Wickerman]

Ha Ha ! Right place wrong time

I'm glad you didn't take me serious.

I wonder why the club wasnt being watched by police the night Liz got killed?

If it was under surveillance, most likely for political reason's?, therefore, not by the regular police.
Would the CID or Special Branch want their presence uncovered? - probably not, so if the club was being watched, most likely we would never know about it.

[Wickerman]

...This is about establishing a model which is best supported by evidence rather than haphazard stabs in the dark. Needless to say that all historical social behaviour will be hard to pin down.

Hello D.G.

We do spend too much time debating the 'times' given by witnesses, when most of them are only estimates.
I'm more in favor of establishing a sequence of events to help interpret the evidence. The 'times' can help refine what we determine but should not be our principal guide - 'times' are not the reliable quantity they appear to be.

[Stewart P Evans]

It's fine...

It's fine to theorise and interpret with minimal evidence and with no practical experience of the subject in question.

I merely note that Chief Inspector Swanson clearly believed that Stride was soliciting stating [inter alia] '...considering meeting (if with a man other than Schwartz saw) the time for agreement [i.e. prostitute/client agreement] & the murderous action...' and, as noted by the Home Office, 'But the suggestion is that Schwartz' man may have left her, she being a prostitute then accosted or was accosted by another man...'

Swanson, 'The body was identified as that of Elizabeth Stride, a prostitute...'

During the inquest the foreman of the jury said to PC Smith, 'Do you see many prostitutes or people hanging about in Berner Street?' PC Smith replied, 'No, very few.' [Not none at all].

I have no doubt that Berner Street was not a regular or popular haunt of prostitutes but, like many streets, soliciting could and did take place on occasions. Very often patrolling officers would have encountered this and probably ignored it if all was quiet. PC Smith would hardly admit to encountering it and ignoring it.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Funny.

If it was under surveillance, most likely for political reason's?, therefore, not by the regular police.
Would the CID or Special Branch want their presence uncovered? - probably not, so if the club was being watched, most likely we would never know about it.

I got one. So CID or Special Branch were watching the club. They saw how the events unfolded and relayed to the police. No Schwartz at inquest because it didn't happen. And Fanny was only outside for 2 minutes. Just long enough for Goldstein to pass by at 12:51. Ha ha!

[Hunter]

Hello Investigator, Cris. The local cops thought she was a prostitute due to her "get up." Flower, perhaps?

Hi Lynn,

The local cops would have likely known who she was - at least some of them. She had been hauled in front of the magistrate 7 times in 3 years for drunk and disorderly conduct. One of those charges included soliciting for prostitution. CID may not have been so familiar with her, but after her murder they would have checked everything they could about her. It would have been much more than just her 'getup.'

[lynn cates]

watch it

Hello Pat.

"I wonder why the club wasn't being watched by police the night Liz got killed?"

Very well may have been. of course, the meeting proper broke up around 11.30. Afterwards, chat and socialising.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

beliefs

Hello Stewart.

"I merely note that Chief Inspector Swanson clearly believed that Stride was soliciting. . ."

Absolutely. That was also the belief of one or more of the beat coppers.

Cheers.
LC