Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Cogidubnus]

Oh OK Garry...no it certainly didn't in my view happen on the street...whether she went in consensually with BS or was shoved/jerked, we'll never know...like you I tend to believe Schwartz saw at least the beginning of the killing, possibly most of it - either way, timing-wise, the odds are against a subsequent acquaintance turning up and doing the business

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

source

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Not quite sure whence their information. And intuitions don't count. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

near horizontal

Hello (again) Dave.

"Don't know that the blood flow pattern, (such as we know of it), would preclude her throat being cut on the way down Garry...""

Quite. And, as Garry points out, near horizontal would work.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

position

Hello Garry.

"Had she been standing or even falling when this wound was inflicted the blood would have tracked downwards across her chest."

Unless, of course, her neck wound were directly over the ground.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

I was responding, Dave, to the suggestion that Stride’s throat was cut whilst she was on the street. This couldn’t have happened. The medicos were quite explicit: the bloodflow had not traversed the vertical axis of the body. It had run laterally from and in line with the neck incision. Had she been standing or even falling when this wound was inflicted the blood would have tracked downwards across her chest. Trusting to the available medical evidence, therefore, Stride was lying on the ground when the throat was cut and her body was not moved to any appreciable extent before Diemschutz happened on the scene.

It is for this reason that I believe Stride entered the yard consensually with Broad Shoulders. I think she knew him (hence the ‘quiet screams’ as recollected by Schwartz), didn’t for a moment suspect that she was about to be killed, and probably took the cachous from her pocket as a peace offering whilst the two stood talking in the darkness of the yard.

Hi Gary
I too think she was killed by bs man but have always thought more likely than not she had her throat cut on the street and staggered into the yard toward noises/help. The lack of blood on her body I always attributed to the blood found on her hand as in her hand went immediately to the wound as she staggered toward the yard.

However, you are are starting to persuade me to your view.

But I still struggle with the notion she would go willingly into the yard with bs man after he attacked her in the road.

[c.d.]

I have trouble with the idea that she entered the yard consensually with the B.S. man. As Abby pointed out, at this point she had already been thrown to the ground probably with the addition of some unflattering language. She would also have witnessed his anger towards Schwartz with the whole Lipski business. She might not have expected to be killed but it is hard to believe that she thought he wanted to discuss the weather. A good beating would seem imminent. Although it is certainly possible that the B.S. man went from zero to sixty in the anger department and reached for his knife, I would expect an argument and a few slaps to the face to make his point.

Since no argument was heard and since Liz had no bruising or marks on her face, I have trouble with this scenario. And for good measure,the police checked and determined that she had no one in her life at the time (I am assuming Kidney had an alibi) who would have some motivation for doing this to her.

c.d.

[Hunter]

In regard to the idea that Stride may have had her throat cut at the foot way, or even while falling... does anyone have any idea how much blood is released when the carotid artery is severed? And that the cut followed right along the edge of her scarf/neckerchief?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Abby/CD

Schwartz certainly places Liz in the Gateway as things kick off. Much subsequently tends to depend on whether you stick purely to the Swanson account and interpret footway only to mean the pavement, as opposed to the semi-paved passage between the buildings, or whether you give any credence to the Star account...

The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter

After some erring either way I'm coming round gradually to the thinking that as a suspect Kidney's a non-starter...aside from the fact the police would've checked him out most carefully, there's the fact that knowing the police have at least one, possibly two, witnesses would he then be as high profile as he was, and dare to turn up at the inquest without forknowledge as to who his fellow attendees might be?

All the best

Dave

[c.d.]

Hello Dave,

As far as Kidney goes, if he didn't have an air tight alibi, you would expect the police to have Schwartz see if he could identify him.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

The talk of Schwartz's story brings to mind the fact that in that tale Liz is on the ground with an assailant looming above her....the same position she is likely in when she is cut...yet she is not on the spot where that actually happens. She must get up from the ground, dust off, and then make her way to the spot inside the passageway where she is cut, ergo, ....according to Schwartz, we must assume that within mere minutes Liz is accosted twice and is left with her assailant above her while she is on the ground.

Doesnt it make more sense if the altercation actually takes place on the spot where she is killed? What Schwartz describes leads to a fall with her assailant being above her.. just like the murderers position. What evidence is there to match with Israels contention.....that she fell to the ground, or was pushed or manipulated, twice within a few minutes? Do we have mud on more than one side of her skirt? Do we have her clothing disarranged and scuffed looking?

She appeared as if "gently lain down", and the mud and such was on her left side, the one she fell down on....but just once.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Cris

Sorry I hadn't spotted your post

In regard to the idea that Stride may have had her throat cut at the foot way, or even while falling... does anyone have any idea how much blood is released when the carotid artery is severed? And that the cut followed right along the edge of her scarf/neckerchief?

At least two quarts according to the inquest account, plus whatever was clotted (per Blackwell's testimony) beneath the body...which I can only assume had drained between the stones because interestingly the doctors do mention the clothing as unstained by blood, and yet (on the left side) plastered with mud...

Doctor Blackwell also states that he is unable to say whether or not the throat was cut while she was standing or after she was pulled backwards, presumably by the tightened scarf to which he appears to be referring, and estimates bleed out as about a minute and a half.

According to Bagster Phillips there was "an unusual flow of blood considering the stature and nourishment of the body"

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Doesnt it make more sense if the altercation actually takes place on the spot where she is killed? What Schwartz describes leads to a fall with her assailant being above her.. just like the murderers position. What evidence is there to match with Israels contention.

Hi Mike

There only needs to be the one assault, witnessed at least in part by Schwartz - just depends on which account you go for, or how you define Swanson's "footway"...Don't know if the yard was resurfaced between 1888 and the now famous 1900 photo, (probably!), but there at least the pavement and passage to the yard do look to be a fairly contiguous footway.

From the descriptions of the scene I suspect at least the edge of the yard was paved, perhaps sufficient to provide a footway up the edge of the passage to the kitchen door

All the best

Dave

PS Of all the documents lost, I suspect the most grievous loss of the lot might be Schwartz's original statement!

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike

There only needs to be the one assault, witnessed at least in part by Schwartz - just depends on which account you go for, or how you define Swanson's "footway"...Don't know if the yard was resurfaced between 1888 and the now famous 1900 photo, (probably!), but there at least the pavement and passage to the yard do look to be a fairly contiguous footway.

From the descriptions of the scene I suspect at least the edge of the yard was paved, perhaps sufficient to provide a footway up the edge of the passage to the kitchen door

All the best

Dave

PS Of all the documents lost, I suspect the most grievous loss of the lot might be Schwartz's original statement!

Hi Dave,

I suppose you missed my point.....Israel says he saw Liz fall.."in the street", so....in front of the gates, and the passageway, then the yard. Unless she crawls to the spot inside the gates while BSM is standing above her, she somehow must get from lying down in the street with a man standing above her to lying down in the passageway with a murderer standing above her. Hence, 2 altercations, not 1 extended one.

The location of the assault Israel says he saw is not the murder spot.

Thats why I asked what physical evidence there was for 2 altercations within minutes? I suspect that the evidence suggests the altercation that ended with Liz Stride murdered was the only one she had just before her death, there was no second assault, Clearer?

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Mike

I suppose you missed my point.....Israel says he saw Liz fall.."in the street", so....in front of the gates, and the passageway, then the yard. Unless she crawls to the spot inside the gates while BSM is standing above her, she somehow must get from lying down in the street with a man standing above her to lying down in the passageway with a murderer standing above her. Hence, 2 altercations, not 1 extended one.

Sorry mate but no he doesn't...In Swanson's words "but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway"...hence my querying how you might define footway.

So not necessarily on the street, or in front of the gates...and if you place any credence on the Star account "The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage"

Just one altercation required...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

reason

Hello Abby.

"But I still struggle with the notion she would go willingly into the yard with bs man after he attacked her in the road."

And for good reason.

Cheers.
LC