Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

"Story overboard."

Hello CD.

"She might not have expected to be killed but it is hard to believe that she thought he wanted to discuss the weather. A good beating would seem imminent. Although it is certainly possible that the B.S. man went from zero to sixty in the anger department and reached for his knife, I would expect an argument and a few slaps to the face to make his point."

Precisely.

"Since no argument was heard and since Liz had no bruising or marks on her face, I have trouble with this scenario."

If you continue this kind of excellent reasoning, it will be only a matter of time until you throw the Schwartz story overboard.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

artery

Hello Cris.

"does anyone have any idea how much blood is released when the carotid artery is severed?"

Yes. I have discussed this with a phlebotomist/venapuncturist. Of course, hers was only partially severed.

"And that the cut followed right along the edge of her scarf/neckerchief?"

Yes, and this is essential to my re-enactment.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Kidney

Hello Dave.

"After some erring either way I'm coming round gradually to the thinking that as a suspect Kidney's a non-starter...aside from the fact the police would've checked him out most carefully, there's the fact that knowing the police have at least one, possibly two, witnesses would he then be as high profile as he was, and dare to turn up at the inquest without foreknowledge as to who his fellow attendees might be?"

Well spoke, mate.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

That's it.

Hello CD.

"As far as Kidney goes, if he didn't have an air tight alibi, you would expect the police to have Schwartz see if he could identify him."

Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

If you continue this kind of excellent reasoning, it will be only a matter of time until you throw the Schwartz story overboard.

Cheers.
LC[/QUOTE]

Or take it with a big grain of salt due to the fact that he didn't understand what was being said and gave his statement through an interpreter.

As you know Lynn, I have no problem with Schwartz but believe a second man (Jack) arrived shortly after and did her in.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

In regard to the idea that Stride may have had her throat cut at the foot way, or even while falling... does anyone have any idea how much blood is released when the carotid artery is severed? And that the cut followed right along the edge of her scarf/neckerchief?

And if her throat was cut out on the footway, the arterial spray would have been evident at the location. The fact no arterial spray was near the body when found in the yard suggests she was perhaps unconscious, or dead?
I wondered if her silk scarf held some of it back, but I don't know if it could. As only the bottom edge of the scarf was frayed, the cut must have been below the scarf.
Also, if her throat was indeed cut on the footway there would be a trail of blood leading towards where the body was found.

Due to the severity of the wound, and subsequent blood loss, it must surely have been quite evident to the doctors that the wound was inflicted where the body was found.

[lynn cates]

deus ex machina

Hello CD. Thanks.

"As you know Lynn, I have no problem with Schwartz but believe a second man (Jack) arrived shortly after and did her in."

But that makes no sense at all.

If Schwartz is telling the truth, then he and pipe man fled in fear.

Meanwhile, Liz and BSM ended their confrontation. He likely went into the club for a moment.

Liz would need to have recuperated and composed herself. Out come the cachous. Now he comes out, sees Liz (now in the yard) and he follows her out. Than he cuts her throat.

But having "Jack" arrive? From whence? Does he walk into the yard and pass Liz in the passageway and then do an about face killing her?

Don't mean to be sarcastic, but is is easier for me to believe that a UFO landed in the yard and Liz was killed by the driver. At least, their relative positions would be correct.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

Swanson opined that there was time for a second man to have done the killing once B.S. man had left. If so, Liz probably went back to where she was standing in the first place and was then approached by Jack. Where was Jack prior to this? I have no way of knowing but he would have had to have been relatively close by.

As for the whole position thing, you are pretty much the only one who puts that argument forth and understands it for that matter. I certainly don't.

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

The fact no arterial spray was near the body when found in the yard suggests she was perhaps unconscious, or dead?
I wondered if her silk scarf held some of it back, but I don't know if it could. As only the bottom edge of the scarf was frayed, the cut must have been below the scarf.

Bagster Phillips commented at the Inquest that the amount of bleeding (presumably referring to the stream of blood down the gulley to the drain, plus the pound of clotted blood found near the throat) was exceptional.

In medical terms this is a slow bleed out (about a minute and a half estimated) so could this in fact be the arterial spray from a partial severing, and could the angle of the head have restricted the flow from the wound allowing it to spray into the gutter and thence stream down the gulley? Blackwell certainly seems to attribute it to the partial nature of the severance.

I'd like to believe the scarf might've restricted the flow, but alas the doctors both make a point of saying that all her clothing was clean of blood. In fact in at least one of the press accounts I've read (your favourite paper Jon!) the scarf or handkerchief is actually produced by Bagster Phillips at the Inquest.

So yes she dies where she's found, most likely horizontal or close to...and as the cachous are found clasped in her hand, then they had to have stayed put all through the process of her being forced there by whoever forced her there (I say forced because I assume we're agreed she didn't get down there voluntarily)...so whether we like it or not, they DID stay put through a violent takedown by someone!

So I believe neither the bleedout nor the cachous in any way preclude BS man as her killer, unless Schwartz can be evidentially discredited, which in turn seems to be precluded by the Met's belief in him (almost certainly on more evidence than we currently have) as late as 6th November at least.

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

tempus et locus

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Swanson opined that there was time for a second man to have done the killing once B.S. man had left. If so, Liz probably went back to where she was standing in the first place and was then approached by Jack."

He does indeed. Of course, he bases this on:

1. Schwartz truthfully averring that the fracas happened at 12.45.

2. Liz dying only a few minutes before 1.00.

"I have no way of knowing but he would have had to have been relatively close by."

And yet, the street is described as empty.

"As for the whole position thing, you are pretty much the only one who puts that argument forth and understands it for that matter. I certainly don't."

I appreciate your honesty. However, ANYONE would come to understand it IF one tried to reproduce it whilst:

1. making sure the body was as found

2. cachous are not spilled.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Dave,

Since she was found laying on her side it would seem likely that she was laid down gently in that position as opposed to being thrown down roughly or violently. In that case, you would expect her to be found on her back or stomach. So it would seem that the cachous would not really come into play in that scenario. It is their withstanding the initial throw to the ground as seen by Schwartz, her putting weight on her hands in getting up and her possibly fighting off the B.S. man as he drags her back into the yard that keeping them between thumb and forefinger seems so unlikely.

c.d.

[Hunter]

Due to the severity of the wound, and subsequent blood loss, it must surely have been quite evident to the doctors that the wound was inflicted where the body was found.

Indeed, Jon. And the idea that her left carotid artery was only partially severed can be a little misleading. There would have been an enormous stream of blood followed by a rapid loss of pressure. As close to the wall as she was, there would have been evidence of spatter on that wall if she was anything but prone when she was cut. That's why the policemen at the scene and the medicos were asked about this.

If you discard all witness testimony and just look at the description of the body as found, it is apparent to me that the poor woman never even knew she was dead.

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Cris.

"If you discard all witness testimony and just look at the description of the body as found, it is apparent to me that the poor woman never even knew she was dead."

Absolutely. The doctor thought maybe 2 seconds time.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

He does indeed. Of course, he bases this on:

1. Schwartz truthfully averring that the fracas happened at 12.45.

2. Liz dying only a few minutes before 1.00.

But we do know that Doctor Blackwell estimates time of death as 20 to 30 minutes before he got there - a time stated as 1.16am...now I don't know if he could actually be as accurate as that and can only go on what he said...he says for example that it was a very mild night and not raining at the time...and to this he attributes the body staying warmer than usual, so he's clearly weighing a number of factors to arrive at this.

Bagster Phillips arrived 20 minutes to half an hour after Blackwell and states that death occurred in the hour before his arrival.

Neither timing precludes BS Man

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

"If you discard all witness testimony and just look at the description of the body as found, it is apparent to me that the poor woman never even knew she was dead."

Absolutely. The doctor thought maybe 2 seconds time.

The Inquest Statement from Blackwell states a minute and a half

All the best

Dave