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Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

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  • [QUOTE=Wickerman;269544]Hello Colin (Bridewell), Dave (Cogidubnus).

    Considering you both show an interest in the issue of Fixed Point Duty, there is another example that really throws the proverbial spanner in the works.

    Apologies Wickerman
    I thought I had answered your post some time ago but when I went through the posts couldnt find it. As you would realize Im a bit of an amateur at navigating the message boards hopefully getting better. In addition, my internet connection is a mobile in a remote location on board a yacht - hence unreliable transmission. Sometimes I have to repeat the message thinking it hasnt registered only to find a duplicate has been sent. Very frustrating! Please refer me again to any unanswered post and Ill deal with it immediately. The weather is nice and calm on the bay at present, but in a blow-up, using a computer is not possible. My communication on the boards will be rather erratic.

    The workings of a fixed point cop are important in supporting Lambs time reckoning. In particular was this a Dr. Who type box with a clock and means of communicating to a police station or was Commercial Rd- Grove Street, simply a standing beat with knees bend. I believe it consisted of a 4 hour stint from 21:00 start to 01.00, then back to the station for a meal and other duties until a 05.00 close of shift. How precise was 01.00? Do they clock off or are they told to stand down? If this is the case, it could be that working time is a clock-in clock-out at the police station. In which case, the F.P could have left his post several minutes before 01.00 to get to the station. From what you report on Drage, he was free to wander where and when it suited him and could not provide support for fixing time.
    In all matters Ripper, its best to get a cocked hat fix, 2-3 sources of corroboration.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Investigator View Post
      .... In which case, the F.P could have left his post several minutes before 01.00 to get to the station.
      Hello D.G.

      If you don't mind me pointing out, some of the fixed point locations are sufficiently distant from either Commercial St. Stn or Leman St. Stn. to warrant a constable leaving his post a good 5-10 minutes before the end of his shift.

      This means the constable taking over from him must also arrive early, a situation which could only lead to confusion and disorganization depending on how far the duty constable had to walk to get back to the station.

      Unless you have something in writing to explain your suggestion I feel I must question your proposal.
      At the end of a shift the constable will only leave his duty post when relieved, and not before.

      There are other reports which inform us that when a constable came on duty at say 10:00am, it meant he was at his post at 10:00 am, not when he 'clocked-in' at the station.

      The testimony of PC Drage is interesting because it demonstrates to me that a constable may apply his own initiative to an evolving situation and not be governed by a rigid rule book.
      Although Drage left is post with the witness to go to the police station he does not tell us that the beat constable was employed to take over his post, which I suspect is the most likely arrangement.
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • Fixed POint Duty

        Yes you're right Jon, that's interesting...and he went to Leman Street Police Station with the knife and it's finder...never noticed before that Drage was Fixed Point...so perhaps it was discretionary...we really do need Monty or someone like him to let us know more

        All the best

        Dave

        Comment


        • match tips

          Hello CD. Thanks.

          Well, rather like the burned match tips I used in the re-enactment.

          Cheers.
          LC

          Comment


          • a few points

            Hello Investigator. Thanks.

            "The requirements of joining the club is to be a vouched for socialist . . ."

            Quite.

            ". . . to just pop in for the entertainment and miss out on the propaganda would not be so friendly."

            True. But gate crashing as well?

            "To a large extent the members remaining after the discussion may well have known each like a family."

            Pretty well.

            "Another point is that Elisabeth may have been able to speak some Yiddish and was confident enough to try to talk herself into the club."

            According to Kidney, she was. Not sure she'd need to talk herself in.

            "Just part of the security while Arbeter Fraint was being worked on in the back room."

            Printing office? Very well. But security?

            "Printing leaflets inciting the assassination of royalty is frowned upon that got Johan Most a 2 year jail sentence. (A one- time editor of such literature) The club was a front to conceal these activities."

            No need. The AF chaps were relatively mild and, of all the portions I've had translated, none called for violence.

            "Perhaps they did, he was no stranger and his presence was considered normal. Lave, was probably the phonetic name for Jaffa who was editing A.F. with Kranz (Rombro) in the editorial office. Came from Paris 1887."

            If you are suggesting the possibility that Liz's murder may have been witnessed, I agree.

            "She was not in danger, her companion was, and she wanted release from him anyway. Seeing a man in the alley she may have assigned him to be a club member and helpful. Also she may still have been on the cobblestones. All this is dynamic action."

            Not sure I understand this.

            "He was holding the knife in the right hand and he was to her left with his arm extended crossing the left part of his chest. As Blackwell described, he pulled her to the left and continued a forward step while reaching over her right shoulder drawing the knife across her throat as he pulled her down. This would have spun Liz slightly to face the wall and positioned her feet towards the wall. Words are somewhat inadequate to describe the dynamic dance that occurred and since we weren't there, is purely speculative."

            This is all well and good and nearly the same as in my re-enactment. One major difference. To work, she must be facing East, not West. So going OUT of the yard, not coming in.

            "An addendum to this which could have had some bearing on the position of her feet (and body). It is usual that in the process of dying from anoxic conditions, e.g. blood loss or heart block, that the large muscles of the body, particularly the legs convulse for some 20 seconds or so. A visit to an abattoir would verify the conditions under which this occurs. Ive seen these convulsions often enough but had no reason to explore what conditions brought it on nor frequency."

            Good. Which led the doctor to say she may have pulled her legs up, but not rolled over.

            "One option worth considering is that Elisabeth did exhibit convulsions which displaced her legs and dress. She was then rearranged together with the placing of grapes in her hand. In other words there was some staging of the body. If those grapes had not been in her hand, I would not have considered that she could have been adjusted."

            Staging? Very well. But to what purpose?

            "As in all things Ripper, there is no such thing as certainty, only probability and face validity."

            But what has the ripper to do with all this?

            Cheers.
            LC

            Comment


            • In order for BS Man to have killed Stride, Schwartz would have to be telling the truth a/o be completely positive it was actually Stride that was being assulted by BS Man in the first place.

              I'm not confident he saw Stride.

              So no, I don't believe BS Man killed Stride.

              Cheers
              DRoy

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DRoy View Post
                In order for BS Man to have killed Stride, Schwartz would have to be telling the truth a/o be completely positive it was actually Stride that was being assaulted by BS Man in the first place.

                a/o eh?

                Goodbye English Language.
                allisvanityandvexationofspirit

                Comment


                • I was like . . .

                  Hello Stephen. Totally.

                  Cheers.
                  LC

                  Comment


                  • Stephen & (Oops, I mean "and") Lynn,

                    I'll (I mean "I will") be sure to spell out all words so that I don't (I mean I do not) ruin the English language.

                    Now back to BS Man...

                    Cheers
                    DRoy

                    Comment


                    • Bsm

                      Its possible that he had the knife in his right hand (over her right shoulder)and they were both facing into the yard. He slit her throat as he pushed her forwards (turning her towards the wall) He then went round to her feet and faced towards the road to see Scwartz pass by. With a big shove by the gate , she could have ended up where she was found ?

                      Pat............................................... ....

                      Comment


                      • Hello Pat

                        Yes that's my belief...and of course from Schwartz's point of view he'd be partially unsighted from part of the action...I think the pushing motion and throat cutting were one rapid movement and that the heavy blood flow down the yard to the gulley (estimated at 2 quarts) may have been arterial gushing...

                        All the best

                        Dave

                        Comment


                        • Oops

                          Please ignore the "He went round to her feet and faced the road" got a bit silly there, wasn't thinking !....

                          It could explain why the cashous didnt spill as she would have fell hitting her left arm possibly hitting a nerve fixing her hand position.

                          Pat......................................

                          Comment


                          • Oh...

                            Hi Pat

                            Please ignore the "He went round to her feet and faced the road" got a bit silly there, wasn't thinking !....
                            I thought you were hinting at his actions, post the cutting, confronting Pipeman and scaring him off...oh well...

                            All the best

                            Dave

                            Comment


                            • When push comes to shove.

                              Hello Pat. With all that shoving, where would the cachous go?

                              Cheers.
                              LC

                              Comment


                              • Blood

                                Hi Dave
                                If he was really deft he could quickly pull the scarf to the left to stop spurting.
                                Blimey it makes one realise how violent and quick it could have been...Poor Liz.

                                Pat...................

                                Comment

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