Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

lowered expectations

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"Sorry but I honestly don't think we can say that with 100% certainty."

Eh? Not looking for anything even close to that figure. 51% would do nicely.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Habla Espanol?

Hello CD. Thanks.

Nah, just speak Spanish and TELL everyone it's Latin.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

I think; therefore, I am.

Hello (again) CD.

"I agree that the BS man is a prime suspect but there are a number of issues (to me anyway) with him being the killer."

My biggest one being his existence.

Cheers.
LC

[Investigator]

[QUOTE=lynn cates;269379]Hello (again) CD.

"I agree that the BS man is a prime suspect ...My biggest one being his existence.


Hello Again,
Can see a little wallowing around on extraneous matters. Let me paint a possible scenario, at this stage without providing supporting information.

Shortly after being seen by P.C. Smith, Elisabeth made her intention known to her companion to gatecrash the club with or without him. There was an element of nostalgia, Russian singing in the Port of Gotaborg stuff.
Her companion became angry, he'd bought grapes and had amorous expectations. She started to walk across to the club, so he accompanied Elisabeth to the entrance of Dutfield’s yard arguing his grievance.
At that point he tried to pull her away from the entry, she resisted so he pushed her whereupon she slipped and fell to the ground. On pushing her he also reminded her that she was intending to join the murdering Jews in the club hence a call of “Lipski”. The club had a rotten reputation to an "Englishman". She didn't cry out loud, she expected him to get rough and she blamed herself.
At this point ,a man within the shadows of the alley emerged possibly with a knife in hand threatening Elisabeth’s companion who retreated rapidly towards Fairclough Street.
Elisabeth social evening was in ruins, she was covered in mud. So the “alley” man invited her to get cleaned up in the kitchen of the club. With an expected meeting with people she would want to impress, what would a girl do? In modern times, put on lipstick, for her though it was take out the cachous. Because it was dark he guided her towards the back door of the club following behind with is left hand resting on her shoulder.
Once past the open gate into the alley he cut her throat.
There was no Schwartz, no drunken man, but the events were pretty much as he described them. It was important to deflect any involvement of the anarchist club from being suspected of murder. If any by-standers noticed elements of the action, it was covered by the Schwartz statement aided by a Diemshitz illusion.

It should be noted that the activities of the IWEC were under surveillance by both British and European secret police. There are reasonable grounds to suspect a mood of paranoia among the club hierarchy, sufficient to deter alien intruders.
By hovering outside the club for 40 minutes Stride and companion attracted the attention of club “security”, members allocated to protect club interests. The “watchers” were well aware of Elisabeth’s presence on their doorstep. A conclusion was drawn that she and her companion posed a threat to the anarchist activities of the club. The couple was under observation and details of them noted.
Most of the membership were run-of the mill hangers-on to socialist politics and knew nothing other than what they were told.
Comlicated conspiracy or a fancyfull story? Possibly, but they were unusual times.
Cheers D.G.

[Investigator]

[QUOTE=lynn cates;269379]Hello (again) CD.

"I agree that the BS man is a prime suspect ...My biggest one being his existence.


Hello Again,
Can see a little wallowing around on extraneous matters. Let me paint a possible scenario, at this stage without providing supporting information.

Shortly after being seen by P.C. Smith, Elisabeth made her intention known to her companion to gatecrash the club with or without him. There was an element of nostalgia, Russian singing in the Port of Gotaborg stuff.
Her companion became angry, he'd bought grapes and had amorous expectations. She started to walk across to the club, so he accompanied Elisabeth to the entrance of Dutfield’s yard arguing his grievance.
At that point he tried to pull her away from the entry, she resisted so he pushed her whereupon she slipped and fell to the ground. On pushing her he also reminded her that she was intending to join the murdering Jews in the club hence a call of “Lipski”. The club had a rotten reputation to an "Englishman". She didn't cry out loud, she expected him to get rough and she blamed herself.
At this point ,a man within the shadows of the alley emerged possibly with a knife in hand threatening Elisabeth’s companion who retreated rapidly towards Fairclough Street.
Elisabeth social evening was in ruins, she was covered in mud. So the “alley” man invited her to get cleaned up in the kitchen of the club. With an expected meeting with people she would want to impress, what would a girl do? In modern times, put on lipstick, for her though it was take out the cachous. Because it was dark he guided her towards the back door of the club following behind with is left hand resting on her shoulder.
Once past the open gate into the alley he cut her throat.
There was no Schwartz, no drunken man, but the events were pretty much as he described them. It was important to deflect any involvement of the anarchist club from being suspected of murder. If any by-standers noticed elements of the action, it was covered by the Schwartz statement aided by a Diemshitz illusion.

It should be noted that the activities of the IWEC were under surveillance by both British and European secret police. There are reasonable grounds to suspect a mood of paranoia among the club hierarchy, sufficient to deter alien intruders.
By hovering outside the club for 40 minutes Stride and companion attracted the attention of club “security”, members allocated to protect club interests. The “watchers” were well aware of Elisabeth’s presence on their doorstep. A conclusion was drawn that she and her companion posed a threat to the anarchist activities of the club. The couple was under observation and details of them noted.
Most of the membership were run-of the mill hangers-on to socialist politics and knew nothing other than what they were told.
Comlicated conspiracy or a fancyfull story? Possibly, but they were unusual times.
Cheers D.G.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

You describe it as a violent assault. But how do you know that? It could have been unintentional for all we know. What do you think the penalty would be for pushing a prostitute to the ground? Liz's reaction (small screams) to me seems much more in line with surprise. Also, we have to believe that the BS man would go on to kill her after being seen by witnesses, one (Schwartz) who the BS man could reasonably assume ran off to fetch the nearest policeman.

I find it very hard to believe that what took place between Liz and the BS man as described by Schwartz was a rare event in Whitechapel. It grows in significance because of the time factor.

I agree that the BS man is a prime suspect but there are a number of issues (to me anyway) with him being the killer especially the whole cachous business which would argue against the assault continuing.

c.d.

Hi cd

You describe it as a violent assault. But how do you know that?
Oh I don't know. Maybe because that's how schwartz described it?

It could have been unintentional for all we know.
Really? An unintentional assault? Maybe bs man unintentionally also shouted out an ethnic slur ?

What do you think the penalty would be for pushing a prostitute to the ground?

Assault and Battery.


Liz's reaction (small screams) to me seems much more in line with surprise

Oh IMA sure she was surprised! The small screams may be because that she was surprised that the man she had been hanging about with suddenly turned on her and not screaming bloody murder because she knew it was the ripper or it could be that it's hard to scream loudly when you throat is Cut.

Also, we have to believe that the BS man would go on to kill her after being seen by witnesses, one (Schwartz) who the BS man could reasonably assume ran off to fetch the nearest policeman.

Which is why she probably wound up with only a cut throat and not missing organs and her intestines draped over her shoulder.

I find it very hard to believe that what took place between Liz and the BS man as described by Schwartz was a rare event in Whitechapel. It grows in significance because of the time factor.

No it was not and yes it does!



I agree that the BS man is a prime suspect but there are a number of issues (to me anyway) with him being the killer especially the whole cachous business which would argue against the assault continuing.

That is actually a very significant point cd. That caschous in her hand.
However, it is very well documented In violent murders, horrible car accidents and death in war that the dead person is found clutching in their hand something that they deem of significance. I would venture that a 19th century white chapel prostitute would find a cashel of mints important. Especially If she had just paid for it with her hard earned money or it had just been bought for her.

[c.d.]

Let's go back to the cachous. Here is the problem. The more vicious the attack by the B.S. man, the greater the likelihood that the cachous would have been broken and scattered. Schwartz describes him as being broad shouldered. I take that to mean that he was a powerfully built man. He throws Liz to the ground with as much force as he can muster (remember, this is a vicious attack). Yet, somehow, the cachous, which were only wrapped in tissue held between her thumb and forefinger, remain intact. Now, Liz has to rise to her feet. You would expect her to extend her hands thereby putting her weight on them. Still, the cachous remain intact. Now let's take into account that Liz was not killed where last seen by Schwartz but further back into the yard. If we assume that the B.S. man had to drag her there, is it reasonable to assume that after being viciously thrown to the ground in a fit of anger that he meant her further harm, possibly death? Would Liz be so naive as to not pick up on that? If she assumed that she was being taken to her death, is it reasonable to assume that she would try to fight him off and escape? Yet, if she tried to do so, the cachous remained intact. So it would seem that the cachous had to survive three separate attacks to dislodge them. Now it is certainly possible that they withstood these attempts but doesn't it seem more likely that Liz did not have them in her hand in all of her interaction with the B.S. man? To me, the obvious answer is that she took them out after the B.S. man had left and she felt at ease. Just my take on it.

c.d

[c.d.]

What's with all the sarcasm, Abby?

Again, where do you get the violent aspect? Schwartz said he saw the BS man push her to the ground. Now, if he said, the BS man was slamming her head into the ground repeatedly or hitting her over and over again, I would say, yes that has got to be our man. It is easy to assign a violent aspect to it but that is based more on what happened afterwards and not from what Schwartz said he saw. It is more like extrapolating backwards, i.e, it had to have been a vicious assault because she was killed shortly afterwards.

Could it have been unintentional? Most definitely. If the B.S. man was pulling one way and Liz was pulling the other and he unexpectedly let go, it could certainly look like a push to Schwartz. It is also possible that they got their feet mixed up causing Liz to fall.

I only envision a few days jail time or a small fine for the B.S. man if caught or maybe just a stern warning not to do it again. That is all he is facing if he stopped after being seen by Schwartz.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Let's go back to the cachous. Here is the problem. The more vicious the attack by the B.S. man, the greater the likelihood that the cachous would have been broken and scattered. Schwartz describes him as being broad shouldered. I take that to mean that he was a powerfully built man. He throws Liz to the ground with as much force as he can muster (remember, this is a vicious attack). Yet, somehow, the cachous, which were only wrapped in tissue held between her thumb and forefinger, remain intact. Now, Liz has to rise to her feet. You would expect her to extend her hands thereby putting her weight on them. Still, the cachous remain intact. Now let's take into account that Liz was not killed where last seen by Schwartz but further back into the yard. If we assume that the B.S. man had to drag her there, is it reasonable to assume that after being viciously thrown to the ground in a fit of anger that he meant her further harm, possibly death? Would Liz be so naive as to not pick up on that? If she assumed that she was being taken to her death, is it reasonable to assume that she would try to fight him off and escape? Yet, if she tried to do so, the cachous remained intact. So it would seem that the cachous had to survive three separate attacks to dislodge them. Now it is certainly possible that they withstood these attempts but doesn't it seem more likely that Liz did not have them in her hand in all of her interaction with the B.S. man? To me, the obvious answer is that she took them out after the B.S. man had left and she felt at ease. Just my take on it.

c.d

Precisely.
She either took them out of her pocket after the fracas in the gateway, and met up with 'someone else' in the yard, or this 'someone else' gave them to her.
Either way, there is another person missing from this dramatic episode.

Two candidates for this 'someone else', must be Pipeman and Parcel man.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Just a thought.

If Pipeman was actually Knifeman, I think we know who probably killed Stride. Say, BSM roughed up Stride and left after two men took off running. This is assuming Pipe/Knifeman, we shall call him Knifeman for the sake of this, and BSM had no connection. BSM leaves cause you sure don't wanna be caught in some stuffs that might be considered Ripperesque. Knifeman returns and murders Stride. Or maybe Knifeman chases IS off and then returns to chase BSM off then kills Stride. Maybe he had been stalking her that evening? Plenty holes at the moment I know. Just thinking aloud. Too loud?

[Abby Normal]

Let's go back to the cachous. Here is the problem. The more vicious the attack by the B.S. man, the greater the likelihood that the cachous would have been broken and scattered. Schwartz describes him as being broad shouldered. I take that to mean that he was a powerfully built man. He throws Liz to the ground with as much force as he can muster (remember, this is a vicious attack). Yet, somehow, the cachous, which were only wrapped in tissue held between her thumb and forefinger, remain intact. Now, Liz has to rise to her feet. You would expect her to extend her hands thereby putting her weight on them. Still, the cachous remain intact. Now let's take into account that Liz was not killed where last seen by Schwartz but further back into the yard. If we assume that the B.S. man had to drag her there, is it reasonable to assume that after being viciously thrown to the ground in a fit of anger that he meant her further harm, possibly death? Would Liz be so naive as to not pick up on that? If she assumed that she was being taken to her death, is it reasonable to assume that she would try to fight him off and escape? Yet, if she tried to do so, the cachous remained intact. So it would seem that the cachous had to survive three separate attacks to dislodge them. Now it is certainly possible that they withstood these attempts but doesn't it seem more likely that Liz did not have them in her hand in all of her interaction with the B.S. man? To me, the obvious answer is that she took them out after the B.S. man had left and she felt at ease. Just my take on it.

c.d

Hi cd
Very good counterpoint. That is one interpretation for sure.thank you for the detail and it may very well have happened that way. I just take the opposite view.

However. She was found brutally murdered with the caschous STILL in her hand.
So weather attacked once or twice they were still in her hand. See what I mean?

[drstrange169]

Hello Stewart,

"...My guess is that she had nothing of actual relevance to say..."

Whilst I agree with most of your post, I can't agree with the above.
M.Mortimer gave us and the police Goldstein.

[Abby Normal]

Let's go back to the cachous. Here is the problem. The more vicious the attack by the B.S. man, the greater the likelihood that the cachous would have been broken and scattered. Schwartz describes him as being broad shouldered. I take that to mean that he was a powerfully built man. He throws Liz to the ground with as much force as he can muster (remember, this is a vicious attack). Yet, somehow, the cachous, which were only wrapped in tissue held between her thumb and forefinger, remain intact. Now, Liz has to rise to her feet. You would expect her to extend her hands thereby putting her weight on them. Still, the cachous remain intact. Now let's take into account that Liz was not killed where last seen by Schwartz but further back into the yard. If we assume that the B.S. man had to drag her there, is it reasonable to assume that after being viciously thrown to the ground in a fit of anger that he meant her further harm, possibly death? Would Liz be so naive as to not pick up on that? If she assumed that she was being taken to her death, is it reasonable to assume that she would try to fight him off and escape? Yet, if she tried to do so, the cachous remained intact. So it would seem that the cachous had to survive three separate attacks to dislodge them. Now it is certainly possible that they withstood these attempts but doesn't it seem more likely that Liz did not have them in her hand in all of her interaction with the B.S. man? To me, the obvious answer is that she took them out after the B.S. man had left and she felt at ease. Just my take on it.

c.d

What's with all the sarcasm, Abby?

Again, where do you get the violent aspect? Schwartz said he saw the BS man push her to the ground. Now, if he said, the BS man was slamming her head into the ground repeatedly or hitting her over and over again, I would say, yes that has got to be our man. It is easy to assign a violent aspect to it but that is based more on what happened afterwards and not from what Schwartz said he saw. It is more like extrapolating backwards, i.e, it had to have been a vicious assault because she was killed shortly afterwards.

Could it have been unintentional? Most definitely. If the B.S. man was pulling one way and Liz was pulling the other and he unexpectedly let go, it could certainly look like a push to Schwartz. It is also possible that they got their feet mixed up causing Liz to fall.

I only envision a few days jail time or a small fine for the B.S. man if caught or maybe just a stern warning not to do it again. That is all he is facing if he stopped after being seen by Schwartz.

c.d.

Hi cd
Lol. Sorry for the sarcasm.
My history professor said the same exact thing to me at UM in response to my thesis that Sparta obviously started the Pellaponesian war. I apologize and will try to tone it done. Your ideas have obvious merit.

BTW. Your an east coast dude right?

[Wickerman]

Let me summarise my original reasoning .
(1) PC Lamb, “… shortly before one o'clock, ..when two men came running towards me…” Lamb was informed of the murder shortly before 01.00(2)”… the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be (brought) from Commercial-road.
It took 15 minutes to find police.
(3) Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers...”
It took 10 minutes to find police
Ergo = The search by club members began 10 -15 minutes before finding police.
If Lambs’ “shortly before one o'clock,” is to mean 12.57, then search began between 12.42 - 12.47.
(4) Isaac Kozebrodsky "I came into the club … at half-past twelve o'clock. Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard…” - Interpret “shortly after” - 10 Minutes? 30 minutes?
If 10 minutes, Diemshiz was in Dutfields yard with Kozabrodsky at 12.40
It cannot possibly be 30 minutes, because Lamb had been informed “shortly before 01.00 and there is a confession by Wess that there was a 10 – 15 minute delay in finding police.
Ergo; Diemshitz was at the murder site before 12:47 and possibly 12.42.
Maybe I'll rest it there for awhile to let the implications of this takes hold.
Cheers D.G.

Hi D.G.

I think it necessary to draw your attention to one small detail.

You have P.C. Lamb being found "shortly before one o'clock", but this is not the case.

P.C. Lamb passed the end of Berner St. "shortly before one o'clock", he was only called "6 or 7 minutes" after he passed the end of Berner St.

Lamb was actually on his way back towards Berner St. with the Constable who had just completed his Point Duty, which terminated at 1:00 am. So we know it was after one o'clock when the two witnesses found him.
How long after we cannot say, but after one o'clock, it was.

Morning Advertiser:

"... I saw nothing suspicious at the time I passed Berner-street, before one o'clock. "


The Daily Telegraph tells us where PC Lamb was, and in what direction he was headed when the witnesses 'found' him:

"When you were found what direction were you going in? - I was coming towards Berner-street. A constable named Smith was on the Berner-street beat. He did not accompany me, but the constable who was on fixed-point duty between Grove-street and Christian-street in Commercial-road. Constables at fixed-points leave duty at one in the morning. I believe that is the practice nearly all over London."


The Times:

"...I passed the Commercial-road end of the street some six or seven minutes before I was called. When I was fetched I was going in the direction of Berner-street. Constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. The constable who followed me down is on fixed-point duty from 9 to 5 at the end of Grove-street. All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m., and then the men on the beats did the whole duty."

I'll leave that with you while the implications take hold.

[Cogidubnus]

Precisely Jon

The presence of Fixed Point Constable 426H does seem to prove that the club members met them after the 1.00am deadline, walking back along the road towards Berner Street, for otherwise, murder or not, PC426H would not have been free to leave his fixed point.

Such is elicited from Inspector Helston's statement following the Chapman case, where a Fixed Point Constable at Spitalfields Market was unable to return with the witness Holland to Hanbury Road.

All the best

Dave