Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

grape response

Hello Jon. Thanks.

I appreciate your sketch. If that had been the case, the entire portion of her dress below the waist should have been muddy. Hence, "small amount" would be inaccurate. Moreover, given the recent rain, that portion should be wet.

And, of course, her hands should be muddied as well.

Curious about one thing--you allow for the grapes. So where are the grapes in all this?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

inconsistent

Hello Mac.

"But, it appears she was lying down when her throat was cut. To me, this is inconsistent with BS Man's supposed wanton attack in the street. Rendering her unable to defend herself, laying her down and cutting her throat seems wholly inconsistent with attacking her in the street and throwing her down onto the ground with Liz supposedly crying out."

Right you are.

"There is also the issue of no bruising fround upon Liz. In order to throw her down he must have used force, and this force should really have led to bruising."

Well, the fall certainly should have.

"Then you add in that no one heard this event, and Mortimer was possibly at her door at this time.

On balance, I would say the BS Man attack is an unimaginative creation of a non existent event."

Well spoke. It certainly seems not very well thought out.

"This would then put the 'clerk' right in the frame. He is seen talking to Liz at 12.35, and as the statement is given by a policeman, then there is little doubt in my mind that this did happen. I would say that a man seen in the company of a murdered woman, 10-15 minutes prior to her murder, near the murder location; automatically becomes a person of interest."

Does PC Smith describe a clerkly man? Two others did, however.

"The problem with this is that the man seen with Eddowes doesn't match up, so if you believe Liz was killed by the same man, which I do, then you have to believe that one of these men seen very close to the murder location and very close to the the time of the murder, just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time."

You mean coincidence? Surely the Brown murder was a coincidence?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bruising

Hello Dave. As you point out, the shoulder marks, observed by the doctors, need not have been part of the fracas.

If she had been throw down--a la Schwartz's story--her hips/thighs/fanny should have exhibited bruising.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Lynn,

Does PC Smith describe a clerkly man? Two others did, however.

He didn't at the inquest.

But I think the City Police put out a description which matched Smith's in all other respects. I always assumed that the description had come from Smith.

[lynn cates]

Smith's man

Hello Mac. Thanks.

"But I think the City Police put out a description which matched Smith's in all other respects."

Well, in some ways, BSM matched Sailor Man.

"I always assumed that the description had come from Smith."

Swanson, in his report, seems less than impressed with Smith's man.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

"Last time Ill say it, because its simply a non debateable fact...to accept Israels account as it was given to reporters, (long before Swansons recollections of it), means that you must accept that Liz Stride was on the ground with an assailant above her 2 times in her last few meager minutes. And If cd could have his way,... by 2 different men no less!!"

Hello Michael,

If you haven't already seen it, you might want to take a look at Stewart Evans' excellent post regarding the question of whether Liz was soliciting and the probability of Liz being attacked twice in a short period of time. It is post #216 in the "Fanny Mortimer, Time Wrong?" thread and is found on page 22 of that thread.

As usual, Stewart provides an excellent analysis and statement of the facts with no dog of his own in the fight.

c.d.

P.S. Glad to know that my position amuses you. So it would seem at least some of my time here hasn't been in vain.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

I appreciate your sketch. If that had been the case, the entire portion of her dress below the waist should have been muddy. Hence, "small amount" would be inaccurate. Moreover, given the recent rain, that portion should be wet.

Hi Lynn.
How to judge what "a small amount" means?
I think you will find that they were only commenting on the jacket, that the left side was plastered, but a slight amount on the right side.
I don't see any mention of mud on her dress, it was not brought up, or do you see something?

"A member of the club named Kozebrodski returned with Diemsschütz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes enveloping it were wet from the recent rain."
Times, 1st Oct.

And, in contrast:

"The clothes were not wet with rain."
Blackwell.

We do know it had been raining on and off that night.

And, of course, her hands should be muddied as well.

Indeed they might be, or at least wet. So perhaps this is another indication that she picked herself up and wiped her hands - in other words she was alive and cognisant after BS-man pushed her down?

Curious about one thing--you allow for the grapes. So where are the grapes in all this?

I tend to avoid talking about the grapes, unless pushed

It isn't lady-like to carry a bunch of grapes around, the appearance of greed?
The man should carry the grapes, only handing her a couple at a time.
(I am assuming) she was with a man through all this, he was in the yard, in the shadows, when BS-man staggered passed.

But to respond to your point, she had neither grapes nor cachous in her hands when BS-man cast her to the ground (IMO).

I'm not sure what to make of the grape story, why would two independent witnesses (Diemshutz/Kozebrodski) claim they saw grapes with no justification for doing so? - its a puzzle.
Equally, a half pound of grapes is quite a handful, so why would the killer take them with him? - wouldn't it be expected that he throw them into the darkness somewhere before leaving?

[c.d.]

Well some upper-class dickhead of the year at the Home Office regarded it as a "pulling around", but Sir Charles Warren said it was an "assaulting"...guess who I believe...

All the best

Dave

Hello Dave,

While not a whole lot of people weighed in on what the B.S. man's punishment for throwing Liz to the ground would be thread, the consensus seemed to be a don't do it again lecture. So while it is true that from a legal standpoint the B.S. man committed an assault upon Liz, it would seem that not all assaults are equal.

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi cd

While not a whole lot of people weighed in on what the B.S. man's punishment for throwing Liz to the ground would be thread, the consensus seemed to be a don't do it again lecture. So while it is true that from a legal standpoint the B.S. man committed an assault upon Liz, it would seem that not all assaults are equal.

You may be right...certainly I'm sure the previous year you WOULD be right...but I suspect with all the pressure on the police from both the Press and the Politicians 1888 might be different. I suspect they'd look very closely indeed at anyone actually apprehended roughing up an unfortunate...looking at the correspondence it would appear they were fairly energetic.

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

shadow man

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"How to judge what "a small amount" means?"

I'm taking it at face value.

Kozebrodski? Not my favourite witness. Not that I have an axe to grind, but:

1. He places Liz's neck wounds 5-6 yards from the drain. That would literally make her feet OUTSIDE the gates.

2. He puts the time at 12.40--early by any standard.

"So perhaps this is another indication that she picked herself up and wiped her hands. . ."

. . . With?

"But to respond to your point, she had neither grapes nor cachous in her hands when BS-man cast her to the ground (IMO)."

Very well. And shadow man gave them to her between attacks?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Lynn.

Kozebrodski? Not my favourite witness. Not that I have an axe to grind, but:

1. He places Liz's neck wounds 5-6 yards from the drain. That would literally make her feet OUTSIDE the gates.

2. He puts the time at 12.40--early by any standard.

Neither his estimates of time nor distance have any bearing on his claim to see grapes.

"So perhaps this is another indication that she picked herself up and wiped her hands. . ."

. . . With?

She carried two handkerchiefs.

"But to respond to your point, she had neither grapes nor cachous in her hands when BS-man cast her to the ground (IMO)."

Very well. And shadow man gave them to her between attacks?

"...just hold these my dear, turn around while I brush the mud of your skirt"

[Cogidubnus]

Or as Lynn and I once surmised:

'Eer, 'ang on ter me sweeties luv, whilst I straightens yer scarf

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

shadow man

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Neither his estimates of time nor distance have any bearing on his claim to see grapes."

Quite. But, given a couple bloopers, one begins to question one's power of observation and reliability.

"She carried two handkerchiefs."

And so, the second was wet and muddy?

""...just hold these my dear, turn around while I brush the mud off your skirt""

Ah! So shadow man did it? Very well. But what was he waiting on?

Cheers.
LC

[Stephen Thomas]

Ha ha. This way madness lies.

[Wickerman]

Hi Lynn.

""...just hold these my dear, turn around while I brush the mud off your skirt""

Ah! So shadow man did it? Very well. But what was he waiting on?

If BS-man did not kill her then is it rash to assume someone else did?


The last person Stride was seen with (as you know) is 'Parcel man'. We don't know if he was the hypothetical 'man in the shadows', or at least still hanging around somewhere.

No matter how the reader chooses to bridge the gap between her assault on the footway (12:45) and her body being found in the alley (1:00), the solution requires a little creative thinking.