Where is Liz Stride?

[caz]

Hello Caroline.

"I do believe it's possible, however, for BS man to have gone on to kill Stride."

Absolutely. If BSM is real, he is your killer. It is, as you might say, bleedin' obvious.

Why so dogmatic?

"There was plenty of time for him to walk off after the witnessed altercation, then turn round and walk back when Schwartz and Pipeman had cleared off. Stride would have been collecting herself, unaware that he had unfinished business with her if he was seriously pissed off by then."

Out of curiosity, is this interlude in place to allow Liz to get into the yard and have a cachous break? Would his going in through the side door of the club, staying for a minute or two, then re-emerging, work as well?

There doesn't need to be much of an interlude, just time for Stride to feel comfortable enough to take out her cachous and be off her guard again. But yes, I'm not fussed about what BS man does, or where he goes after Schwartz legs it and before Stride is actually murdered. However, if you are fine with an interlude of a 'minute or two' while Stride is on her own with her cachous, why are you so not fine with BS man simply walking away, allowing the man with the knife to creep up and take his opportunity?

Love,

Caz
X

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"For that matter, why does everyone assume that crack dealers out on the street in Miami are there to sell crack."

For a crack dealer to be a crack dealer, crack must be dealt.

So your argument is:

"Well, Liz must have been soliciting, after all, that's what prostitutes do."

I leave it to you to name that logical fallacy.

No fallacy because there's no argument. I was simply saying that crack dealers out and about in the evening, are not necessarily selling crack. Yet, "Always be selling" is the salesman's motto...wait a sec! Don't prostitutes sell? Not always mind you.

Mike

[caz]

You had argued that Schwartz would not have risked telling a tale had he been unsure of the environment at 12.45. My reply was (and is still) that club people were out at 12.40. If they saw a clear street, then all they needed do was concoct a story about a Gentile bully who roughed up Stride, hurled a racial slur, and put the story in a poor immigrant's mouth.

Should the situation have changed drastically between 12.40 and 12.45, the translator need only have tweaked Schwartz to say, "Perhaps it was 12.40 after all." There was ZERO risk from the story.

Of course, that does not make the story true or false.

Cheers.
LC

You reckon?

So they knew Schwartz inside out? Knew he would do a decent job of it for them? Knew he would sound convincing? Knew he wouldn't get flustered, forget his lines, break down halfway through or confess that it was all a lie and he was put up to it? Trust him not to reveal who was behind the scam, not even if he was offered good money and a promise that he wouldn't get into trouble?

You reckon if it had all gone tits up, the people behind it wouldn't have faced charges of perverting the course of justice at best and murder at worst?

This is why conspiracy theories tend to fall down: the conspiracy itself would tend to do the same.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"For that matter, why does everyone assume that crack dealers out on the street in Miami are there to sell crack."

For a crack dealer to be a crack dealer, crack must be dealt.

So your argument is:

"Well, Liz must have been soliciting, after all, that's what prostitutes do."

I leave it to you to name that logical fallacy.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

May I turn the question round and ask you why must Stride not have been in the market to earn a few pence in whatever way the buyer at that hour requested? She was completely without funds when found dead. Why must this be interpreted to mean she already had her bed and breakfast sorted (feather pillows, scrambled eggs and smoked salmon, no doubt) courtesy of the new beau who so discourteously left her standing outside the club to become just 'another' murdered woman?

Love,

Caz
X

[Jon Guy]

You had argued that Schwartz would not have risked telling a tale had he been unsure of the environment at 12.45. My reply was (and is still) that club people were out at 12.40. If they saw a clear street, then all they needed do was concoct a story about a Gentile bully who roughed up Stride, hurled a racial slur, and put the story in a poor immigrant's mouth.

Should the situation have changed drastically between 12.40 and 12.45, the translator need only have tweaked Schwartz to say, "Perhaps it was 12.40 after all." There was ZERO risk from the story.

Of course, that does not make the story true or false.

Oh, it`s the ole conspiracy thing. Right okay, sorry, carry on ..

[lynn cates]

real B S M

Hello Caroline.

"I do believe it's possible, however, for BS man to have gone on to kill Stride."

Absolutely. If BSM is real, he is your killer. It is, as you might say, bleedin' obvious.

"There was plenty of time for him to walk off after the witnessed altercation, then turn round and walk back when Schwartz and Pipeman had cleared off. Stride would have been collecting herself, unaware that he had unfinished business with her if he was seriously pissed off by then."

Out of curiosity, is this interlude in place to allow Liz to get into the yard and have a cachous break? Would his going in through the side door of the club, staying for a minute or two, then re-emerging, work as well?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

zero risk

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Silly? The whole discussion has become silly.

Desperate? You forget that my theory flows much more smoothly if BS is real.

You had argued that Schwartz would not have risked telling a tale had he been unsure of the environment at 12.45. My reply was (and is still) that club people were out at 12.40. If they saw a clear street, then all they needed do was concoct a story about a Gentile bully who roughed up Stride, hurled a racial slur, and put the story in a poor immigrant's mouth.

Should the situation have changed drastically between 12.40 and 12.45, the translator need only have tweaked Schwartz to say, "Perhaps it was 12.40 after all." There was ZERO risk from the story.

Of course, that does not make the story true or false.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

But why accept Schwartz or the existing report as being accurate?

Why not?

Why would Schwartz still be important if BS Man didn't kill Liz?

Because BS man may have been the cause of the killer's intervention. But we don't actually know that BS man didn't kill her, so naturally Schwartz is important until there is good reason to think otherwise.

Funny thing is, Schwartz appears to be a lot more important to those who want to take his account right out of the equation for absolutely no good reason at all.

I don't get it. Why don't they just get rid of all the witness testimony throughout the murders, start from scratch and make it up as they go along?

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

argumentum ad populam

Hello David. Thanks.

"By the way, even those who don't make her a ripper-victim can assume she was soliciting that night."

Ah, a different logical fallacy. If I can collect just a few more samples, I can write my own text.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Schwartz is a different kettle of fish, if he actually saw what he stated he saw then he's a very important witness indeed. And you know his story has a ring of truth to it, particulary the Lipski incident. As has been pointed out it's hard to reconcile the cachous held in Liz Stride's hand with the attack as witnessed by Schwartz, but it's not a problem if BS man was not Stride's killer. I don't believe he was, and for any one who states there was not enough time for another assailant to enter the scene after BS mans aassault I have only one word, piffle.

Regards

Observer

Hi Observer,

Yes, it is piffle. And it wouldn't need to be a coincidence either, if her killer simply saw the opportunity to lend her a 'helping hand'. Most men out on the streets at night would have seen unfortunates being sworn at, insulted or manhandled in some way.

I do believe it's possible, however, for BS man to have gone on to kill Stride. There was plenty of time for him to walk off after the witnessed altercation, then turn round and walk back when Schwartz and Pipeman had cleared off. Stride would have been collecting herself, unaware that he had unfinished business with her if he was seriously pissed off by then.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

petitio principii

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"For that matter, why does everyone assume that crack dealers out on the street in Miami are there to sell crack."

For a crack dealer to be a crack dealer, crack must be dealt.

So your argument is:

"Well, Liz must have been soliciting, after all, that's what prostitutes do."

I leave it to you to name that logical fallacy.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Sorry for sticking me big nose in there, Caz. I thought you may have gone away for a day or two and I was on a roll ..

As you will know it would have only took 2 or 3 mins to walk down Berner St to the junction... if we`re boiling it down to minute by minute timings.

Hi Jon,

Your big nose is more than welcome.

Yes, an awful lot can happen in each 60-second period. It's odd that this tends to get forgotten by the very people who rely on the accuracy of the reported timings for their theories to hold up.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Ah, so they weren`t there at the crucial time."

Indeed. But, if Schwartz were lying and were called out on time, he could "regret" the error and backdate by 5 minutes.

Cheers.
LC

Blimey Lynn, this is silly and a little bit desperate, and not worthy of a reply .. oops, too late I`ve replied.

[DVV]

Q: "Why must we assume Liz is soliciting?"

LC

Hi Lynn,

because she was a prostitute in Berner Street (see the thread "Selling matches and soliciting"). (Of course, you can argue that there is no evidence she was selling matches.)

By the way, even those who don't make her a ripper-victim can assume she was soliciting that night.

Slainte

[The Good Michael]

Q: "Why must we assume Liz is soliciting?"

Hi Lynn,

True. For that matter, why does everyone assume that crack dealers out on the street in Miami are there to sell crack. They might be trying to find a fourth for pinochle.

Mike