Where is Liz Stride?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

"He described a man with a peaked cap"

Yes, but they were not uncommon.

I think Abby makes a good point.

Apart from BS Man, Marshall`s Man and Church Passage Man who else popped up in the Ripper saga wearing a peaked cap? I can only think of Sadler and George Chapman. They weren`t that common. But three or four sightings of men wearing peaked caps within a few hours?

[lynn cates]

common

Hello Abby.

"He described a man with a peaked cap"

Yes, but they were not uncommon. And a deerstalker looks like a peaked cap from full frontal view.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

covered

Hello Roy. thanks.

"I had your "other site" picture in mind when I wrote my elaborate script"

Ah! Good reason to wear a hat.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Jon Guy,

My point about the Saucy Jack postcard is that if you going to use it as another detail that supports Schwartz then you have to rely on the authenticity. Otherwise you'd be saying a hoax supports Schwartz which could move Schwartz's story into hoax territory.

Schwartz could have lied purposely. He could have been a forgetful person and said the wrong time. Maybe he couldn't tell time and just guessed. Maybe he was misinterpreted. Maybe his statement was jotted down incorrectly. Maybe nobody saw him because he wasn't there. Maybe maybe maybe. All supposition. So is accepting it at face value. All of these in my opinion could lead us to the exact same spot we're in. I'm not saying any of them are true, just trying to say it is possible.

I don't know, maybe I'm asking too much of a witness. I just don't see a difference between Mortimer's statement and Schwartz's statement other than he claims to have seen something and she claims not to have. For whatever reason, most others accept Schwartz and discount Mortimer.

DRoy: I saw Lynn Cates shoplifting a hat from your store
Employee Jon Guy: Really? I'll ask the security guard if he saw anything. Sir, did you see a hat being stolen?
Security Guard Michael Richards: I was watching him the entire time. He didn't take anything.
Employee Jon Guy: That's weird, I am missing a hat!!
DRoy: I saw it with my own eyes Jon, Lynn stole your hat. Who you going to believe, me or the security guard?

(We've already had the seven dwarfs, a riddle, and now a script in this thread! Why not!)

Cheers
DRoy

DRoy: I saw it with my own eyes Jon, Lynn stole your hat. Who you going to believe, me or the security guard?

Schwartz

(sorry, couldn't resist)
; )

[Abby Normal]

All

I keep hearing about that nothing corroberates Scwartz story-I would respectfully disagree.
He described a man with a peaked cap as did:

PC Smith
Marshall
Lawende

C,mon folks
Four witnesses describe a man seen with the victim(s) with the same hat.
It not only corrobarates IS's story but each others.

My bet is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

[DRoy]

Jon Guy,

My mistake. Please allow me to continue...

Security Guard Michael Richards: I was watching him almost the entire time. He didn't take anything otherwise I would have seen him.
Employee Jon Guy: That's weird, I am missing a hat!!
DRoy: I saw it with my own eyes Jon, Lynn stole your hat. Who you going to believe, me or the security guard?
Employee Jon Guy: Well I guess you're right DRoy, you at least saw something and Michael didn't.
c.d.: Haha! Those Casebook guys are so stupid, it was me the whole time! I'm going to write them a cryptic letter. I shall call it The Saucy Jack letter and start off with the words "Dear Boss"! Brilliant!!

[DRoy]

Lynn,

A toupee, perhaps? (heh-heh)

I had your "other site" picture in mind when I wrote my elaborate script

Cheers
DRoy

[Jon Guy]

Hi DRoy

DRoy: I saw Lynn Cates shoplifting a hat from your store
Employee Jon Guy: Really? I'll ask the security guard if he saw anything. Sir, did you see a hat being stolen?
Security Guard Michael Richards: I was watching him the entire time. He didn't take anything.
Employee Jon Guy: That's weird, I am missing a hat!!
DRoy: I saw it with my own eyes Jon, Lynn stole your hat. Who you going to believe, me or the security guard?

Well, if Mr Richards, the Security guard admitted he wasn`t watching the whole time (like Fanny Mortimer did) there really isn`t a problem.

(We've already had the seven dwarfs, a riddle, and now a script in this thread! Why not!)

:-)

[lynn cates]

toupee

Hello Roy. Thanks.

A toupee, perhaps? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

Jon Guy,

My point about the Saucy Jack postcard is that if you going to use it as another detail that supports Schwartz then you have to rely on the authenticity. Otherwise you'd be saying a hoax supports Schwartz which could move Schwartz's story into hoax territory.

Schwartz could have lied purposely. He could have been a forgetful person and said the wrong time. Maybe he couldn't tell time and just guessed. Maybe he was misinterpreted. Maybe his statement was jotted down incorrectly. Maybe nobody saw him because he wasn't there. Maybe maybe maybe. All supposition. So is accepting it at face value. All of these in my opinion could lead us to the exact same spot we're in. I'm not saying any of them are true, just trying to say it is possible.

I don't know, maybe I'm asking too much of a witness. I just don't see a difference between Mortimer's statement and Schwartz's statement other than he claims to have seen something and she claims not to have. For whatever reason, most others accept Schwartz and discount Mortimer.

DRoy: I saw Lynn Cates shoplifting a hat from your store
Employee Jon Guy: Really? I'll ask the security guard if he saw anything. Sir, did you see a hat being stolen?
Security Guard Michael Richards: I was watching him the entire time. He didn't take anything.
Employee Jon Guy: That's weird, I am missing a hat!!
DRoy: I saw it with my own eyes Jon, Lynn stole your hat. Who you going to believe, me or the security guard?

(We've already had the seven dwarfs, a riddle, and now a script in this thread! Why not!)

Cheers
DRoy

[Jon Guy]

DRoy

Regardless, i'm not sure what you mean his statements match others?

What I mean is that according to all the witnesses no-one else was apparently about Berner St at 12.45 except Schwartz, BS Man, Stride and Pipeman. The details of his statement don`t clash with any other witness statements.

Saucy Jack postcard? That's the evidence to support Schwartz?

It`s just another detail that supports what Schwartz saw.

Apparently its been proven that whoever wrote the Saucy postcard also wrote the dear boss letter.

I don`t think it has been proven. We don`t know who wrote the two letters. But it`s best not too make much out of them. I was merely pointing out a detail in the letter that corresponded with Schwartz`s statement.

You'd also either have to believe BS Man was 'Jack'

Well, he was the one assaulting her at a possible TOD

or that 'Jack' killed Liz after BS Man assaulted her.

Possible of course, but now we are inventing stuff for this to happen.

All that is a lot of faith instead of looking at Schwartz instead being a bit off in his time or that he was misinterpreted.

If he was out in his time wouldn`t he have been seen by one of the many other witnesses?
Wouldn`t he have seen the same clock at the top of the road that Diemschitz used?

There is the possibility that he was misinterperated but basically he saw the murdered woman struggle with a man at a possible TOD.

[DRoy]

Michael,

...but in essence what she claims is that off and on, she was at her door from 12:30 on...until approximately 12:50, when she says that she was at the door continuously until about 1:00am.

In essense? She didn't say that at all.

There is of course room to speculate she was away from her door when these things supposedly happened, between 12:35 and 12:50am, but that last 10 minutes seems to be covered. Which begs a few questions, if true.

Why didn't she see Louis Diemshutz arriving around 1am, or at least, approaching? If Liz Stride is in the passageway after 12:35, and it was empty at 12:40 as suggested by Eagle and Lave...., who was at the gates around 12:30 also, then where is Liz? If she is in the yard, and with a Ripper, then why doesn't she die there ripped? I have a few other questions but perhaps someone can address these?

She said she was outside almost the entire time between 12:30 - 1:00. That could mean she went outside at 12:32 and inside at 12:55 and therefore would have been outside almost the entire time. She said she had just gone inside and was getting ready for bed when she heard Diemshutz arrive. That's how she couldn't see him arrive. Did he arrive at 1:02? 12:58? Exactly 1:00?

Can't answer your other questions as nobody saw Liz after Smith unless Schwartz's story is true.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Michael,

I asked it before in another thread on McCarthy but it wasn't answered...when someone gives a statement to the press, what does that mean? Does it mean they wrote a letter? It isn't an interview from a reporter so how does one go about it?

There are small variances in her statement to the press and not sure how that could happen.

There are definite differences in some stories about Mortimer but they aren't from her. They must be from a neighbor but they are not all her statements. They are told in third person. I know at least one paper gave her statement and the third person story on the same page but in two separate articles.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Jon Guy,

I could be mistaken but I thought it was one of Schwartz's friends that translated. (No time to confirm this). Regardless, i'm not sure what you mean his statements match others? If you are talking timeline there is nothing that is commented on that shows how Schwartz fixed his time.

Saucy Jack postcard? That's the evidence to support Schwartz? Apparently its been proven that whoever wrote the Saucy postcard also wrote the dear boss letter. I think it would be much more difficult to show that 'Jack' killed the first three and wrote those two correspondences. You'd also either have to believe BS Man was 'Jack' or that 'Jack' killed Liz after BS Man assaulted her. Not to mention all the problems with the two letters. All that is a lot of faith instead of looking at Schwartz instead being a bit off in his time or that he was misinterpreted.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

First off, thanks for playing. And to address a few things that have been said, the issue of BSM is that he would almost certainly have been Liz Strides killer cd, the timing of an assault with the throat cut doesn't really allow for your Jack fellow to pop in afterward. And as Lynn points out...hardly Ripper material, to semi quote Balin in the Hobbit.

As for Fanny, she did make several statements, one of which I posted at the start of this thread, but in essence what she claims is that off and on, she was at her door from 12:30 on...until approximately 12:50, when she says that she was at the door continuously until about 1:00am.

There is of course room to speculate she was away from her door when these things supposedly happened, between 12:35 and 12:50am, but that last 10 minutes seems to be covered. Which begs a few questions, if true.

Why didn't she see Louis Diemshutz arriving around 1am, or at least, approaching? If Liz Stride is in the passageway after 12:35, and it was empty at 12:40 as suggested by Eagle and Lave...., who was at the gates around 12:30 also, then where is Liz? If she is in the yard, and with a Ripper, then why doesn't she die there ripped? I have a few other questions but perhaps someone can address these?

Cheers all