6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[DRoy]

Caz,

The post Michael is talking about is in my opinion a little easier to follow regarding times, witnesses and all stuff Schwartz. We even have the seven dwarfs making an appearance!

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,


But who believes Schwartz today and who doesn't is very relevant, because without him you leave yourself with no BS man; no manhandling of Stride before she was murdered; a vaguer timeline for her arrival at the club and subsequent murder; nobody who saw her killer; and, as a result, even fewer objections to the ripper doing his swift, silent thing, but having to split before he could do more than slit her throat.

Love,

Caz
X

Since no-one else saw any BSman, or Liz in front of the gates around 12:45...in fact since no-one seems to have seen Liz at all after PC Smith leaves, there is little reason to believe his story. Add to that he did not give his statement at the Inquest, ....why would I disbelieve all the other witnesses that make statements concerning the quiet nature of the street at that time and the absence of Liz Stride from view?

I think the other thread I started does overlap here, because in that it seems apparent that no-one seems to know where Liz Stride was at 12:40...only that she wasnt in the street, she wasnt in the passageway, and she wasnt in the yard....according to club witnesses.

Add Fannys quiet street comments...and you have a vacuum at 12:45..not an assault and 2 men lurking about.

Cheers Caz

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon,

Any argument involving Stride's killer requires unsubstantiated leaps of faith. There are too many unknowns to reach any firm conclusions based on the few facts of the case.

Hi Caz,

That applies to Ripper assumptions as well. Its a guess....and one without any merit within the physical evidence. Thats why its probable we dont have a Ripper here Caz...but an unknown killer, who just kills.

Cheers

[caz]

Hi Mike,

You wrote regarding Schwartz:

Or disbelieved...or discovered to be a plant by the Club itself. Who believed the tale is really irrelevant in the larger scheme, there seems to be no effect on the
Stride investigation nor does it have any value in, again, the larger scheme of things.

But who believes Schwartz today and who doesn't is very relevant, because without him you leave yourself with no BS man; no manhandling of Stride before she was murdered; a vaguer timeline for her arrival at the club and subsequent murder; nobody who saw her killer; and, as a result, even fewer objections to the ripper doing his swift, silent thing, but having to split before he could do more than slit her throat.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

report

Hello Same. Thanks.

Very well. Do we have any reports that Liz was drunk that night? Staggering, etc?

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

This is just an exercise , some might believe BSman is more likely to be her killer than the suggestion she was attacked twice within 15 minutes. Whether a possible second assault was 'Jack' or not also remains debatable.
Then again, Kidney could have appeared on the scene after BSman left.

The trouble is, any argument that has BSman walking away leaving Stride alive requires unsubstantiated leaps of faith in the existence of another suspect.

.

Hi Jon,

Any argument involving Stride's killer requires unsubstantiated leaps of faith. There are too many unknowns to reach any firm conclusions based on the few facts of the case.

What about all the unsubstantiated leaps of faith in the existence of a suspect other than the ripper for her murder? Assuming the police were not such complete idiots that they cleared Kidney without any basis for doing so, who else do we have any business to suspect, and what evidence is there that Stride said or did anything that would have motivated some unknown, very possibly mythical individual to take a knife to her throat and risk the gallows?

I would not be happy hanging the man who was seen pulling Stride about, on the basis that he probably went on to slit her throat. Ask Sally Anne Bowman's ex boyfriend, who had a long argument with her in his parked car, just before driving off and leaving Sally to be brutally knifed to death by Mark Dixie, who had been watching and waiting for his chance. Before DNA testing, the ex boyfriend would have copped it for sure. He was the prime suspect before his DNA cleared him.

Love,

Caz
X

[Semper_Eadem]

Hello Same. Thanks.

Found it?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I guess it depends on what kind of flower it was on whether she could of found it or bought it.

Really the reason for my theory is that Liz fell off the wagon is that I've had alcoholics in my family and I could just see Liz all to easily falling off the wagon and ending up either one of Jack's victims or Kidney's to be fair. I think Kidney reached the end of his tether with Liz and had a mini breakdown. Actually I could see why Kidney might of locked her up too. That's what makes me think she might of been an alcoholic. Although I could be barking up the wrong tree too.

Geo~

[lynn cates]

What a find.

Hello Same. Thanks.

Found it?

Cheers.
LC

[Semper_Eadem]

Hello Same. Thanks.

"I wonder if she was prostituting while she had that 6d. She might have spent it on beer and then started prostituting to earn more money because she fell off the wagon as the saying goes. In other words she might have waited until the money she had was gone before she prostituted herself"

OK. Whence the flower?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,
I forgot the flower. Maybe she bought that too or found it.

[DRoy]

Lynn, Michael, Jon

We may have gone a bit off topic for this specific thread. Michael started a new one yesterday where much of our recent discussion might be better suited. I hope we can continue there if you will...

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

maybe

Hello Jon.

"Given that no-one else in Berner St. was able to confirm the story, and that one press release suggests Leman St. had reason to doubt Schwartz, we have to wonder."

Excellent summary. That's it in a nutshell--cannot confirm; cannot deny.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Swanson

Hello Roy. Thanks.

"Maybe that changed later? Are there any recorded comments about Schwartz after Swanson said there is no reason to doubt the statement?"

Not of which I am aware. I doubt Swanson changed his mind, and I have no reason to believe he was aware of the Leman attitude.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

chopping and a changing

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Yes, and isn't it just possible that Kidney had stumbled upon her that night, or even followed her accompanied by those men?"

I'll bite. Can you help me see this? Here's the least bad so far.

1. Kidney worked the docks.

2. He might have worked late.

3. The docks were located to the south.

4. Michael just happened to pass down Berner on his way home.

5. He sees Liz by chance and "cautions" her.

BUT:

6. Schwartz has BS going north to south. from docks to home requires south to north.

That won't do.

Cheers.
LC

Followed by

Hello Roy. Thanks.

"Your united front is scaring me, please go back to disagreeing."

I am alarmed myself. (Alright, CD, was Liz killed by "Jack"?--heh-heh)

"Who said BS Man killed Liz?"

Various and sundry. IF Schwartz is right, look no further. Of course, I cannot convince myself that Israel told the truth.

Cheers.
LC

Also

Hello Jon. Thanks.

No suggestion whatever about Swanson. And, yes, he had no doubts about the story.

My suggestion concerns Schwartz ONLY. And, according to one press account, the lads at Leman were dubious about his story.

Cheers.
LC

Makes one wonder.

[lynn cates]

Where have all the flowers gone?

Hello Same. Thanks.

"I wonder if she was prostituting while she had that 6d. She might have spent it on beer and then started prostituting to earn more money because she fell off the wagon as the saying goes. In other words she might have waited until the money she had was gone before she prostituted herself"

OK. Whence the flower?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

marginally speaking

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"In questioning Schwartz (the story) we are also questioning Swanson."

I don't see that. He believed the story. He may have been right--or not.

"Because Swanson's position places any opinion he holds beyond question, then Schwartz gets a free pass."

On the contrary, I take his pronouncements as marginal. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC