6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

You seem to be envisioning a coldy calculating unemotional killer more akin to somebody planning a bank robbery and weighing all the risks. If it were Jack, the desire to kill might have outweighed common sense and made him take too much risk that he only realized after the kill. At that point, perhaps it was buyer's remorse and he realized the best course of action was to flee and find another victim.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Curious,

I imagine somebody wanting to take a leak would go into the back yard rather than exit through the front.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Actually, I suspect that the way a "lady of easy virtue" acted when conducting business might be very different from what she would do when considering a potential "real" relationship.

Anyone else have ideas in this area?


curious

Exactly. Thanks!

[Abby Normal]

I'm not sure if you just said what I think you just said..

If you did, why have you been quiet for so long...

What do you mean?

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby.

"she playing hard to get"

A lady of easy virtue playing hard to get? Might be an oxymoron on the order of "free-spending Scotsman."

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn
Yes. Perhaps she was looking for a new man after breaking up with kidney. Perhaps that's why she spent her money on caschous and a flower. According to the witnesses stride was seen with possibly the same man over the course of the evening (peaked cap man). Going straight into the prostitute/client act would probably ruin any chance for a relationship in her mind.

She was also the only victim where there is no evidence that she was drunk off her ass. She could have been relatively sober, liked this person she just met, and had hopes of something more long term than a "trick".

[curious4]

Interruptions

Hello Michael,

Ingenious idea with the soapy water, I must admit. Not so likely though. The front door was locked, yes, to anyone coming in, but no problem for anyone wanting to leave from the inside.

It was very, very dark in the passageway, Diemschutz had to strike a match to see anything and I don't think he would have been able to see much more than what was just in front of him. Anyone standing just a short distance away would be invisible. And what did everyone who found one of the bodies do? Run for help. Cue for Jack to leg it round the corner, perhaps into one of the loos, and then mingle with the crowd, all of them looking at the body, not at whoever was standing next to him/her.

Best wishes,
C4

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

I would like to point out that the club wasn't quite as full of able-bodied men at the time of Liz' attack. Most members had gone home - I believe about 20 remained behind, of which at least one, probably more than one, was female. I think Jack would have felt fairly safe as long as the singing was going on, it was not likely people would leave then, and it makes more sense that those who did would leave by the front door. Why go out into a dark passage in the back yard when there was a perfectly good door at the front?

If anyone had left by the back entrance he had only to retreat into the shadows until they had gone. What he would find more of a nuisance would be a shying pony which smelled fresh blood and an owner investigating.

Although it has crossed my mind that Jack did intend to take two victims that night and sacrificed his mutilation of Liz in order to reach his target.

Best wishes,
C4

Hi Curious,

A couple of points, ....there were around 30 people still in attendance upstairs singing and at least Mrs Diemshutz and a cleaning woman were downstairs in the kitchen. Some Cottagers stated that they were awake at the approximate time of the murder. The kitchen door was ajar. As per Morris Eagle, the front door was locked by 12:40am.

In the yard there was the office of the Arbeter Fraint and some unused stables with an office above.

That means when Liz is killed there are any number of access points for someone to stumble in while the attack is ongoing...from the street, from the cottages, from the side door to the club, and from the office of the paper. It was a very poor choice of a spot to kill someone based on those risks.

And the Police did check the yard and the stable and the cottages....there is only one place a killer could have hid on that property once the police arrived....he could have been one of the men from the club down for a smoke, and simply re-entered it after the cut. Dropped his knife in the soapy dishwater on the way upstairs to re-join the singers.

Best regards

[curious4]

Hello Curious,

I will look into Bury in a bit more detail - still think we shall have to agree to disagree though.

All good wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

alius

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Yes, other considerations. Of course, can't push that too far.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Socrates

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"The Socratic Method?"

But of course.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Curious,

Yes, I think it is true that psychopaths have great self-confidence. I don't really think Bury fits the bill either as Jack or someone who was smooth-tongued. Tumbelty I am sure could talk his way out of awkward situations and let me throw H.H. Holmes into the mix. His ability to talk people round is legendary. I once heard what was supposed to be a recording of his voice and he sounded absolutely charming (if it was him).

I do see Jack as a charmer, though, right up until he had his hands round your throat!

Best wishes,
C4

Hi, C4,
We'll have to agree to disagree on Bury. The man at the end of his life likely could not have.

But prior to his melt down and the murder of his wife, he had been a salesman and hawker, a snazzy dresser and a man who liked to appear above his station. I find him very viable as a suspect -- at least, he was capable of murder, most of the other suggested suspects we don't know that about them.

H.H. Holmes, of course, was capable of multi-murders and was apparently mesmerizing, hypnotizing even.

Like you, I see a thread running through these murders that suggest some "charm."

curious

[curious4]

Different

Hello Michael. thanks.

"Is it really that simple?"

Yes.

"Surely you could create a plausible scenario where there was an interruption, a scaring off, or just a decision not to do this particular woman."

Certainly. But why would I wish so to do?

"It is just as easy...easier to say someone else did it because...why?....it wasn't exactly the same? Either way requires some leap in logic or some additions."

What it requires is a devotion to Dr. Phillips and his thought processes.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Dr Phillips did indeed say there was a great difference, as there was, from a medical point of view. But perhaps not from a crime scene point of view - knife used (possibly similar to the one used on Polly Nicolls, once again the rounded chandlers' knife was found before Liz was killed), the way the cut was laid and the choking of the victim prior to the cut.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[curious4]

Interruptions

Hello all,

I would like to point out that the club wasn't quite as full of able-bodied men at the time of Liz' attack. Most members had gone home - I believe about 20 remained behind, of which at least one, probably more than one, was female. I think Jack would have felt fairly safe as long as the singing was going on, it was not likely people would leave then, and it makes more sense that those who did would leave by the front door. Why go out into a dark passage in the back yard when there was a perfectly good door at the front?

If anyone had left by the back entrance he had only to retreat into the shadows until they had gone. What he would find more of a nuisance would be a shying pony which smelled fresh blood and an owner investigating.

Although it has crossed my mind that Jack did intend to take two victims that night and sacrificed his mutilation of Liz in order to reach his target.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Confidence

Hello Curious,

Yes, I think it is true that psychopaths have great self-confidence. I don't really think Bury fits the bill either as Jack or someone who was smooth-tongued. Tumbelty I am sure could talk his way out of awkward situations and let me throw H.H. Holmes into the mix. His ability to talk people round is legendary. I once heard what was supposed to be a recording of his voice and he sounded absolutely charming (if it was him).

I do see Jack as a charmer, though, right up until he had his hands round your throat!

Best wishes,
C4

[The Good Michael]

"Surely you could create a plausible scenario where there was an interruption, a scaring off, or just a decision not to do this particular woman."

Certainly. But why would I wish so to do?

The Socratic Method?

Mike