6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael

Yes I know Maria worked on this.
Actually, what you call an altercation involving 3 persons happened in less than one minute, and Pipeman had probably nothing to do with it. Nobody was shouting loud, according to Schwartz.

All the best, amigo

The best to you as well David.

Then heres another problem....how come Spooner, or Brown, or the young couple Brown sees, dont see Israel run into the street they are on at the time... at 12:46...by your one minute speculation? Or Pipeman.

Its not only Fanny who "missed" seeing Israels storyline unfold.

And I checked my earlier post and it seems like I was suggesting Immigrant Jews as whole were referred to as "Anarchists", which of course was not my intention. I meant to suggest only the club and its members.

Cheers my friend

[Observer]

Hi Obs, that's indeed very likely imo.
As for Schwartz protecting someone, that's a cranky idea to me.
If I need a witness to save my neck, I would choose one that can speak English properly (which btw isn't my case, aaarff, as everybody knows on boards).

All the best

Mais oui mon ami. By the way, you in all likelyhood speak better English than I !

Regards

Observer

[DVV]

Hi Michael

Yes I know Maria worked on this.
Actually, what you call an altercation involving 3 persons happened in less than one minute, and Pipeman had probably nothing to do with it. Nobody was shouting loud, according to Schwartz.

All the best, amigo

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Obs, that's indeed very likely imo.
As for Schwartz protecting someone, that's a cranky idea to me.
If I need a witness to save my neck, I would choose one that can speak English properly (which btw isn't my case, aaarff, as everybody knows on boards).

All the best

It has been stated by a member here David, I believe Maria, that she has uncovered a link between Schwartz and Wess, which would make his story, which ultimately is likely designed to place the assault on Liz off the clubs property, thereby providing a potential alibi story for the club. As is Eagles. And Laves. And Diemshutz.

Anyone who believes that the club members wouldn't be desperate to have any suspicions regarding the murder lifted from their shoulders doesnt understand the clubs history, its reputation, and the fact that Immigrant Jews as a whole were not well received by the neighborhood. They were called Anarchists by the cops, and "Low Men", by the neighbors.

Fanny is just about the most important witness for what happens in front of the club between 12:35 and 1am, I dont think assuming she missed an altercation with 3 people involved moving about on cobblestones and a cry out is really the most pragmatic approach to assessing the data.

But then again, I dont need to shape the evidence to reinforce a belief that a Ripper killed her either.

Cheers David.

[DVV]

Consequently it's entirely possible that Mortimer (should Schwartz's story be truthfull) was indoors during BS mans assault upon Liz Stride.
Observer

Hi Obs, that's indeed very likely imo.
As for Schwartz protecting someone, that's a cranky idea to me.
If I need a witness to save my neck, I would choose one that can speak English properly (which btw isn't my case, aaarff, as everybody knows on boards).

All the best

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

As it pertains to this thread...

Did Liz die for it? No, at least she did not have it if she did die for it.

[DRoy]

Observer,

I once again have to steal from Lynn Cates...yes it is possible but so is alien abduction. Something of that sort. Something to do with aliens.

Just kidding

Yes it is possible. Just as possible as Schwartz protecting someone. Just as possible as Schwartz being misinterpreted. Just as possible as his interpreter was misinterpreted. Just as possible as the one recording the statement misinterpreted. And like the fantastic Faberge commercials with Heather Locklear back in the day..."and so on and so on..."

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

The essence of Fanny Mortimers statement indicates that although she was at her door off and on from 12:30 until 12:50, when she was there continuously until 1am, the only person she saw in any close proximity to the gates was Goldstein at 12:56. Goldstein stated Tuesday night that he passed the gates at 12:55-56 via an Interpreter...hence...there is no need to present either witness at the Inquest. The time and story by both can be deemed valid.

The police do not have the obligation to provide 2 witnesses for the same time period if they match, if they do not, then they may put both statements on the record. Or not. That might explain why we only have Mr Browns sighting of 12:45 on Inquest records, although if they believed Brown did see Liz Stride ,then they must also have thought she received the flower arrangement after Browns sighting, or he missed seeing it. Neither seems realistic to me.

Cheers Observer

Hi Mike

I'd agree. Consequently it's entirely possible that Mortimer (should Schwartz's story be truthfull) was indoors during BS mans assault upon Liz Stride.

Regards

Observer

[Wickerman]

Sorry Dave, I hope you didn't think I was talking about 'today'. I see what I wrote could have been taken in the present tense, but I assure you I am deeply entrenched in Victoriana
(Sideburns and all)

[Cogidubnus]

I believe that the initial decision about who's evidence to accept is that of the Coroner's Officer, today generally a serving police officer, but in those days frequently not...the final decision is clearly that of the Crowner but the initial list would be prepared by the officer.

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Probably just a poor choice of wording (above), but I believe the police do not choose which witnesses appear at the inquest, this is the Coroner's decision.
The police merely provide the Coroner with all their witness statements, which he reads and chooses which witnesses are likely to provide him with all the information he requires.

.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi DRoy

With respect you're wrong

Mortimer, Evening News 1st October 1888

" It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School."

And I' very surprised that the police did not call Mortimer to inquest reargding her observance of Goldstein. After all, she could have corroborated his story, and confirm that he had no contact with Stiride as he passed down the street.

Regards

Observer

Observer

The essence of Fanny Mortimers statement indicates that although she was at her door off and on from 12:30 until 12:50, when she was there continuously until 1am, the only person she saw in any close proximity to the gates was Goldstein at 12:56. Goldstein stated Tuesday night that he passed the gates at 12:55-56 via an Interpreter...hence...there is no need to present either witness at the Inquest. The time and story by both can be deemed valid.

The police do not have the obligation to provide 2 witnesses for the same time period if they match, if they do not, then they may put both statements on the record. Or not. That might explain why we only have Mr Browns sighting of 12:45 on Inquest records, although if they believed Brown did see Liz Stride ,then they must also have thought she received the flower arrangement after Browns sighting, or he missed seeing it. Neither seems realistic to me.

Cheers Observer

[DRoy]

Observer,

I've responded in the other Liz thread. Discussing the same thing in two different threads is getting confusing for me!

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Hi DRoy

With respect you're wrong

Mortimer, Evening News 1st October 1888

" It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School."

And I' very surprised that the police did not call Mortimer to inquest reargding her observance of Goldstein. After all, she could have corroborated his story, and confirm that he had no contact with Stiride as he passed down the street.

Regards

Observer

Observer

[DRoy]

Observer,

Every witness said they didn't see anyone pass through the street but Schwartz sees BS Man, Liz, Pipeman, plus himself. Dead street, busy street, dead street. Okay if you say so.

Cheers
DRoy