6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[Wickerman]

Several board members have argued that Schwartz was associated with the club and that club members provided him with a story in order to deflect suspicion away from the club.

Hmm.... Oh, what a tangled web we weave....

.

[c.d.]

Hello Curious,

Several board members have argued that Schwartz was associated with the club and that club members provided him with a story in order to deflect suspicion away from the club.

With regard to Liz possibly screaming, we don't know enough of the details surrounding her death to rule out the possibility. Could she have managed to scream right before she was choked? We simply don't know.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Curious,

One's level of paranoia doesn't have to remain constant. It can wax and wane. The interim between murders could have given him time to calm down and collect himself. On the other hand, he might have felt so frustrated at not being able to mutilate Liz that it overrode any paranoia or thoughts of self preservation when he went after Liz.

You certainly see the same thing with attempted abductions of young school girls. The news will report a man attempting to grab a young girl on her way to school only to run off after she screams or someone else appears on the scene. The news then reports that another attempt was made on a young girl later that same day.

c.d.

[curious4]

Paranoia

Hello again c.d.,

I would perhaps agree with you more if Jack hadn't killed Kate shortly afterwards, in a square checked regularly and often by the police, with people living there and a watchman with his door open. Doesn't sound as though he was panicked to me. And I don't really understand your reference to Schwarz. Was he pushed forward by the club? Did he even have any connection to the club? Liz couldn't have cried out after the cut and if she was first choked into unconsciousness, couldn't have cried out before it.

All good wishes,
C4

[c.d.]

Counting Tabram, there were three murders in a relatively short time prior to Jack ever meeting up with Liz. The murders were being played up in the papers and were being talked about. Single men on the street were being given a second look. It is not unreasonable that Jack overheard pub talk about how the Ripper would soon be caught and hanged. Maybe somebody where he worked talked of being questioned by the police or maybe even Jack himself had been stopped and questioned. So I can see Jack coming into this current situation with a good deal of paranoia. As discussed previously, the prior locations didn't lend themselves to suddenly being confronted by several able bodied men all of whom were close by in the club. Perhaps this killing didn't go as smoothly as before. Perhaps Liz cried out when she was cut. Could somebody in the club have heard that? Did he hear the sound of a door? Could somebody in the club be coming out for a breath of fresh air? Did the singing suddenly just get louder catching his attention? The list goes on and on.

It's funny that a number of people who dismiss out of hand the whole idea of a paranoid Jack fleeing the scene have no problem embracing an elaborate plot whereby the club members hastily push Schwartz onto the stage in a desperate attempt to deflect suspicion away from the club. Why in the world would they do such a thing? You guessed it. Good ole' paranioa. It can happen to the best of 'em. Just not Jack though apparently.

c.d.

[curious4]

Interruption

Hello cd,

Good point, but everyone in and around the yard was questioned at length about anything untoward they may have noticed from at least 12.30 onwards, so what could have scared Jack off other than Diemschutz is a puzzle. He didn't lack nerve in the other cases seemingly.

Best wishes,
C4

[c.d.]

The problem here is that Jack could have been scared off and fled by something that we will never know long before Demschutz arrived. So trying to determine whether Jack had 20 minutes or 20 seconds to do his thing before the pony cart arrived is somewhat of a moot point.

c.d.

[The Good Michael]

I believe that any blood remaining in a body after the heart stops tends to pool within the body. Possibly, I suppose, some from the wound might trickle out due to gravity, but not for long I would think.

Liquid seeks its own level.

Mike

[curious4]

Blood trickle

Hi Curious

I believe the yard sloped very very slightly away from Liz Stride's body towards the club back door, the blood ran in that diection. Dr Philips used the term "stream" to describe the initial spray of blood, so an horrific wound. As the heart stopped beating it's my opinion that as Liz Stride lay on a slight incline, it would have been enough for gravity to have taken over, and drawn the blood out. It's possible that blood oozed from the wound for some time after the initial cut.

Regards

Observer

Hello Observer,

I believe that any blood remaining in a body after the heart stops tends to pool within the body. Possibly, I suppose, some from the wound might trickle out due to gravity, but not for long I would think.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Clotting

Hello Curious and all,

What I meant was this. (Leaning heavily on a novel by Dorothy Sayers, in which the victim has his throat cut). When he is found, his blood is in a liquid state, so it is assumed that he has just been murdered. Turns out that he has haemophilia, blood doesn't clot, his throat had been cut half an hour earlier.

If one interprets the doctor's comment to mean that to his eye there was more blood than expected, it could possibly be because Liz had a clotting problem and, as the blood stayed liquid for longer, appeared to be more in volume. If this were to be the case, she could have had her throat cut say 15 minutes earlier (12.45ish) and that might point away from Jack as he would have have had ample time to do his thing. Although I would lean more towards Liz having her throat cut just before Diemschutz turned into the yard and that the culprit was therefore Jack disturbed.

All this, of course, is pure speculation. I am not sure that the man who threw Liz to the ground was her killer. He was drunk, for one thing and I don't see Jack as drunk. A drunk man is likely to shout an insult at someone he thinks is staring at him. Perhaps he saw Liz standing at the gates, assumed she was soliciting and was angry about being turned down. Also it doesn't fit with the doctor's idea of how she was killed, scarf pulled back first to choke her and throat cut either in falling or while unconscious on the ground.

Kidney was an obvious suspect, so he must have had a very good alibi. Also, in passing, the round ended chandler's knife was found at 12.30 - that is, before Liz was killed.

Best wishes,
C4

[Observer]

Yes indeed. Those with an agenda being the worse culprits of course.

Regards

Observer

[curious]

Hi Curious

I believe the yard sloped very very slightly away from Liz Stride's body towards the club back door, the blood ran in that diection. Dr Philips used the term "stream" to describe the initial spray of blood, so an horrific wound. As the heart stopped beating it's my opinion that as Liz Stride lay on a slight incline, it would have been enough for gravity to have taken over, and drawn the blood out. It's possible that blood oozed from the wound for some time after the initial cut.

Regards

Observer

Hi, Observer,

Thanks,

I agree that blood might continue to drain from the body until it clotted at the wound --

Perhaps that has been the problem with some of the other discussions on this issue -- people using about the same words, or very nearly the same words, to mean different things . . .

That's been a point of hot debate concerning the Nichols case.

Need to ponder for awhile.

curious

[Observer]

Hi Curious

I believe the yard sloped very very slightly away from Liz Stride's body towards the club back door, the blood ran in that diection. Dr Philips used the term "stream" to describe the initial spray of blood, so an horrific wound. As the heart stopped beating it's my opinion that as Liz Stride lay on a slight incline, it would have been enough for gravity to have taken over, and drawn the blood out. It's possible that blood oozed from the wound for some time after the initial cut.

Regards

Observer

[curious4]

Blood

Hello Curious,

As far as I know blood stops flowing when the heart stops. Nothing to pump it round.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious]

Hello namesake,
See my follow-up. Although one of the doctors estimated that it would have taken one to two minutes for her to bleed to death.

Cheers,
C4

would her blood not have continued to ooze even after death? are we talking about two entirely different things here?

curious