Diemschutz arrival

[Monty]

Taking the practice of looking at each case individually, and on its own merit, then yes, we do have a throat cut then nothing.

So the interuption occurs just at the moment the throat has been cut? Not as it was being cut?

Her clothing was not disturbed. Unlike Nichols, Chapman and later Eddowes.

Cut throat and then, at that precise moment, Diemshitz (who stated he saw nothing unusual in his approach or at the scene), arrives.

That is the most likely course of events yes? Or is it the one that favours the theorists who require Stride to bolster their pet suspect?

Monty

[Lechmere]

If we did have - throat cut then nothing - then suggesting stride was from a different hand might make sense. But we don't have 'then nothing'. We then have eddowes a short time later. Just the short length of time that it would take to all to algae find a suitable victim walk to mitre square and kill her.

The stride mo was:
Find single vulnerable female late at night.
Go to secluded spot with her (facilitated by the victim being a prostitute).
Render her insensible.
Lie her down.
Cut her throat.

All that matches Nichols, eddowes and chapman.
Of course more came after with them. That is explained by interruption.

[Wickerman]

Hello Tom, Jon. If Stride were unconscious, would not her grip relax? And if it did, would not the cachous have spilled?

Cheers.
LC

We might assume that if she was unconscious she should have dropped the cachous. Alternately, we might also assume that if she was conscious she would have resisted the attack, thereby dropping the cachous.

One of these assumptions is wrong.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

dishonourable intentions

Hello Harry.

". . . as she was left in that position, it seems quite possible that an interruption may have occurred"

Very well, but would that not depend upon her assailant's intentions? Is there any evidence that necessitates our believing he had not finished when her throat was cut?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello Miakaal.

"I have read that it may have been Strides knife that was used to kill her, that says to me that she must have pulled it out for some reason"

Very well, but why is she still holding the cachous with her free hand? And if her assailant used her knife, why no sign of a struggle?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

relax

Hello Tom, Jon. If Stride were unconscious, would not her grip relax? And if it did, would not the cachous have spilled?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

deep subject

Hello Jon.

"I don't see any major difference between Eddowes throat wound and Stride's"

Was Stride's cartilage notched by a deep knife cut--almost as deep as Polly and Annie's?

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

The minor difference between Stride's cut throat and that of others has strictly to do with two factors - the obnoxious (from the killer's point of view) scarf around her neck, and the jagged stones over which her neck was lying. He had to use his free hand to pull the scarf up and raise her neck from the rocks, instead of using it to provide the necessary resistance to get a deep cut. For this reason and ONLY this reason does her neck wound differ. Otherwise, we have that rarest of knife murderers - a confident killer who gets the job done in one clean swipe.

The neck wound is one of the classic red herrings of the Stride case, though by no means as far out there as most others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Not referring to that either.

I'm referring to point that with the throat cut, the whole act ends.

Now either that is perfect timing on Diemshitz part, or the killer had done what he wished to do.

Which is the most likely?

And if he had done what he wished to do then is it likely that we have a regression in mutilation after Nichols and Chapman?

Or is it Stride was not of the same hand?

Throat cut....then nothing.

Monty

[harry]

From the information available,Stride,shortly before her death,w as in the company of two males.One shows aggression towards her,with the other she seems perfectly at ease.Not hard for me to see it was the second one who she would accept as being of little danger to her.As it is hard to accept that she chose to lay down in the position in which she was found,then common sense indicates it was her killer who laid her there,and as she was left in that position,it seems quite possible that an interruption may have occured,rendering further attention to the corpse unsafe.Not knowing how,does not in the least affect the who,or how he might have acted in previous or subsequant situations.

[miakaal4]

Assuming Strides killer was disturbed, he would have heard the horse approaching as he was attacking her. I have read that it may have been Strides knife that was used to kill her, that says to me that she must have pulled it out for some reason, either to boast/warn the man with her that she could take care of herself, or, if Schwartz information is accurate, she may have got the knife out to counter attack or escape the chap who pushed her down. The fact that the attack was minimal (as compared to Eddows) could mean that her throat was cut seconds before Diemshitz arrival. The killer must of assumed the horse would be going past, or did not hear it, being otherwise occupied.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick,

I agree that Stride must have been unconscious at the time her throat was quote, and agree that it's a complete mystery of how this occurred. I personally do not rule out fainting, but there are many other options. The bruising to the shoulders might indicate a nerve hit, which some of the suspect would certainly be capable of. She might also have been strangled but without so much force as to leave evidence of it. This does happen. She may have been smothered to unconsciousness. But surely the lack of evidence suggests a hand accustomed to murder, and not an angry attack from a random, drunken killer?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom.

Yes, there is no lack of available methods to render her unconscious, its the lack of evidence that she was, that's the problem.
Guesswork doesn't make her a Ripper victim, M.O. & Signature do, and we don't see anything about her murder that points in one particular direction.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick,

I agree that Stride must have been unconscious at the time her throat was quote, and agree that it's a complete mystery of how this occurred. I personally do not rule out fainting, but there are many other options. The bruising to the shoulders might indicate a nerve hit, which some of the suspect would certainly be capable of. She might also have been strangled but without so much force as to leave evidence of it. This does happen. She may have been smothered to unconsciousness. But surely the lack of evidence suggests a hand accustomed to murder, and not an angry attack from a random, drunken killer?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

.... He had to use his free hand to pull the scarf up and raise her neck from the rocks, instead of using it to provide the necessary resistance to get a deep cut.

This suggests to me that Stride is unconscious, why she let him yank her neck up like that without screaming, scratching and turning away from him is a little unbelievable if she is still conscious. She had to be fighting him.
If she wasn't resisting, why, what had he done to her to get her down on the ground in the first place, and unable to resist, and where is the evidence?

For this reason and ONLY this reason does her neck wound differ. Otherwise, we have that rarest of knife murderers - a confident killer who gets the job done in one clean swipe.

We can only really compare Stride's neck wound with that of Nichols. Chapman's was not described in sufficient detail to distinguish the first cut from the second.
With Nichols we have the first cut described as 4" long, but very deep. It was just as much a 'stab' as a 'rip'.
I don't see any major difference between Eddowes throat wound and Stride's, not that we should expect two wounds on two different victims to be identical, we shouldn't.

Stride's would is given as 6" long, but just as deep as Nichols & Eddowes on the left side. I wouldn't say they were not comparable, my issue is there is no indication of how he got her down on the ground to begin with, no indication of suffocation/strangulation.
This is why Stride's killer could be the same one who later killed Coles or Mackenzie, or used the same method.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Easy. With his arm wrapped around her throat, so as to cut her airway and control her lowering down.
And trust me, I've tried this both as a perp and as the "victim".
Worked fine as a perp, didn't work too too good for the guy who tried this on me as “the victim“.

Not too different from what the Green River killer was doing to his victims actually.

PS.: I'm starting to think Monty has put me in his "ignore list“.

Maria.
I'm not asking how he could have done it, we can all think up ways he might have rendered Stride insensible. The arm around the throat, when both are fully clothed, does not permit enough pressure to stop the victim crying out.

The most significant issue for me is that there is no indication of how he did get her down like the others. There is no point in insisting she was a Ripper victim if the method used was different. It has to be the same as the others (Nichols and Chapman). And, if we can see evidence in previous killings, even slightly, of strangulation, then we need to see the same with Stride to include her in the C5.
To argue "this was different because....." is nothing more than conjecture and does not justify her inclusion.

Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

How did he get them there?
If you think Stride was also on the ground when she was attacked, how did he get her there with "no signs of a struggle'?

Easy. With his arm wrapped around her throat, so as to cut her airway and control her lowering down.
And trust me, I've tried this both as a perp and as the "victim".
Worked fine as a perp, didn't work too too good for the guy who tried this on me as “the victim“.

Not too different from what the Green River killer was doing to his victims actually.

PS.: I'm starting to think Monty has put me in his "ignore list“.