Diemschutz arrival

[Fleetwood Mac]

Apart from SPE, lol.

But seriously, one of the factor that has me interested in Berner Street (apart from the complexity and the political ramifications) is the fact that this part of the case has been completely neglected or misinterpreted until about 2010.

Political ramifications?

Complexity?

Some lunatic is doing the rounds cutting people up. Not really complex.

The scenario seems to follow the pattern: dark spot, off the street, throat cut, laid down etc. There was a decent chance he would have been disturbed given the location and those coming in and out around estimated time of death. What other options did he have? Where else could he have lured a prositute to? Surely not somewhere with no one in the vicinity.

Seems to me this is a fella chancing his arm wherever he could.

Just a random thought.......

Any chance this was Cutbush's Mile End job? It certainly was near a Syndicate, and I suppose at a push Mile End Road ain't too far. Being from South of the river he may have known this area as Mile End. Taken to have been of the Jewish persuasion and got away.....

[mariab]

And since when did Stride's inclusion become a far-reaching theory? As I recall, it was a CONCLUSION arrived at by virtually EVERY contemporary investigator. And thus far it's been a conclusion that has ONLY been questioned by writers who were less than accurate in their facts

Apart from SPE, lol.

But seriously, one of the factor that has me interested in Berner Street (apart from the complexity and the political ramifications) is the fact that this part of the case has been completely neglected or misinterpreted until about 2010.

[Fisherman]

Monty:

"I do believe asphyxiation does result in the clenching of fist and muscle spasming just prior to death."

It does, and we have for example Tabram´s fists clenched. But it will take some time before this happens, time enough at any rate to drop a packet of cachous. I believe victims of fires also have clenched fists, and that too will be the final product only, of course.

On some of the earlier threads we had an example where a man had been shot through the head in a gunfight, clenching his own gun very tightly in his hand - they had to force his fingers open to procure the gun. It would therefore seem that Stride suffered a severe damage very quickly, and I don´t rule out that she was cut very quickly in the process, perhaps as she had been pulled off balance and was travelling towards the ground. If there was a jet of blood, it could have been directed towards the ground, Stride landing upon it - she had had her left artery almost cut through, and she landed on her left side, meaning that the wound may always have been directed downwards if she was cut during her fall.

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Accepting the truth of Schwartz's story, there was indeed a fracas.

What reasons are there for not accepting his witness statement?

Was it an interruption? Possibly.

Undoubtedly.

[lynn cates]

interruption

Hello Jon. Thanks. Accepting the truth of Schwartz's story, there was indeed a fracas.

Was it an interruption? Possibly. But the question arises, "Interruption of what?" The scenario is pertinent if and only if the answer is, "A mutilation."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

experience

Hello Neil. Thanks. I suppose empirical experience is too dangerous.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

We have no way of knowing about an interruption. Why do some believe in it? Simply because one believes that Liz was a ripper victim and so MUST have been kept from mutilation. Obviously, this places the horse before the cart.

There is one interruption on record, that of Schwartz and BS man.

[Monty]

No idea Lynn,

I do believe asphyxiation does result in the clenching of fist and muscle spasming just prior to death.

Monty

[lynn cates]

filtering

Hello (again) Harry.

This all depends on correct identification. As you know, Mrs. Long's Annie sighting and Lewende's Kate sighting are still hotly disputed.

"Strange how, when I study the killings, I am struck with the similarities, and not the differences."

Not strange at all. A psychologist would refer to it as filtering the scenario through pre-set notions. This goes as well for us who see the differences.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

under pressure

Hello Neil. Thanks. Do you think that a movement to the throat, involving pressure, would cause clenching?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

a few points

Hello Harry. Thanks.

"[T]he only evidence we have is that there was an intent to kill Stride."

Yes. Of course, there may not even have been "malice aforethought."

"No one can say what was intended afterwards."

Completely agree.

"The timings submitted by witnesses, do however allow for an interuption by the arrival of Diemschutz."

Yes, it is possible.

"It is quite plausible,that after killing Stride,the killer would pause before continuing further activity."

Well, it is possible. "Plausible" may go a bit far.

"Perhaps the total darkness in the yard,as described by witnesses,was a hindrance,untill the eyes became accustomed to that darkness,and then Diemschutz turns up."

But would this not also hinder the throat cutting?

We have no way of knowing about an interruption. Why do some believe in it? Simply because one believes that Liz was a ripper victim and so MUST have been kept from mutilation. Obviously, this places the horse before the cart.

Cheers.
LC

[harry]

Is the lead up to,and the actual killing of Stride,so very different to Chapman and Eddowes. E ach was seen,a short time before their death,and very near to where death happened,in the company of a male person. .In the case of Chapman a question of 'Will you' was heard by witness.In the case of Stride it appears she was responding to a question.Shortly after the sightings,the victims were found with a wound to the throat.Chapman,Eddowes and Stride,showed no sign of unease in the male's company,the male showed no sign of aggression.Strange how,when I study the killings,I am struck with the similarities,and not the difference.The only item of interest seems to be that a man called Diemschutz might have prevented even more similarities.

[Monty]

Well, this was the conclusion endorsed by the police, based on the evidence itself. And you keep bringing up the matter of timing and coincidence, but are perfectly willing to accept that a murder perpetrated as skillfully as Stride's should occur within 45 minutes and within a 10 minute walk of another murder which YOU seem (for reasons unexplained) to accept as a genuine Ripper murder. That would be a true anomaly, not a killer being interrupted, which quite possibly occurred in the case of Nichols as well as possibly Stride. In short, anyone who doesn't accept Stride as a Ripper murder should be very leery of accepting Eddowes as one.



Who is this aimed at? What suspect theorists are there who require Stride to bolster their theory? And since when did Stride's inclusion become a far-reaching theory? As I recall, it was a CONCLUSION arrived at by virtually EVERY contemporary investigator. And thus far it's been a conclusion that has ONLY been questioned by writers who were less than accurate in their facts, and only took hold because Michael Kidney was offered as an alternative suspect. But Kidney didn't kill her. So the arguments because more and more desperate, and now we're down to the one...and only...reason to question her inclusion as a Ripper victim...that being the fact that she was not mutilated. But it's forgotten that ALL of the Ripper victims were mutilated to different degrees. The killer was not following some paint-by-numbers model. He was on the streets with a knife and interruption or discovery was a constant and real concern for him/them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The reasons are obvious Tom, even to you. Eddowes is similar murder to Nichols and Chapman.

Stride isn't.

Again, it is also clear as to WHO its aimed at, as it says who in the sentence. I never said its a far reaching theory, just that its unlikely in my opinion.

You recall it wrong. As you do when you feel threatened.

You need to relax more and re-read my post as you have obviously just skimmed it. Especially the part where I state I cannot rule Stride out completely.

Monty

[Monty]

Hello Cris. Thanks for that. Yes, I noticed that both fists are clenched.

I wonder whether a clenched fist, due to pressure around the throat, would unclench as soon as the pressure is eased?

Cheers.
LC

Kennedy is involuntarily reacting to neurological nerve root irritation that the bullet, which penetrated near his C-7 vertebra, caused. C-7 nerve root irritation causes muscle spasms and other involuntary reactions in the forearms, elbows, and hands.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Cut throat and then, at that precise moment, Diemshitz (who stated he saw nothing unusual in his approach or at the scene), arrives.

Well, this was the conclusion endorsed by the police, based on the evidence itself. And you keep bringing up the matter of timing and coincidence, but are perfectly willing to accept that a murder perpetrated as skillfully as Stride's should occur within 45 minutes and within a 10 minute walk of another murder which YOU seem (for reasons unexplained) to accept as a genuine Ripper murder. That would be a true anomaly, not a killer being interrupted, which quite possibly occurred in the case of Nichols as well as possibly Stride. In short, anyone who doesn't accept Stride as a Ripper murder should be very leery of accepting Eddowes as one.

That is the most likely course of events yes? Or is it the one that favours the theorists who require Stride to bolster their pet suspect?

Who is this aimed at? What suspect theorists are there who require Stride to bolster their theory? And since when did Stride's inclusion become a far-reaching theory? As I recall, it was a CONCLUSION arrived at by virtually EVERY contemporary investigator. And thus far it's been a conclusion that has ONLY been questioned by writers who were less than accurate in their facts, and only took hold because Michael Kidney was offered as an alternative suspect. But Kidney didn't kill her. So the arguments because more and more desperate, and now we're down to the one...and only...reason to question her inclusion as a Ripper victim...that being the fact that she was not mutilated. But it's forgotten that ALL of the Ripper victims were mutilated to different degrees. The killer was not following some paint-by-numbers model. He was on the streets with a knife and interruption or discovery was a constant and real concern for him/them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott