Diemschutz arrival

[c.d.]

Hello (yet again) CD.

"If her killer was in fact Jack and given the circumstances under which he was operating, is it so unlikely that he might have been scared off prior to Diemschutz arriving? If that happened, what possible evidence would we have of that?"

I would say this--that the throat cut be as deep as the others. Then before mutilation began, an interruption would be more feasible.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

If Jack were her killer, do you think that he gave any thought whatsoever as to the deepness of the cut? Her killer did what was needed to kill her.

Does Tiger Woods hit his drives the exact same way every time?

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

There is ample evidence that Liz Stride was employed as a charwoman/maid/nanny after having spent a few years prostituting to support herself while still in Sweden, there is also evidence that she helped run a coffee shop, that she acted as a maid for a relation of a policeman and that she had told close friends she had "been at work among the Jews" recently. She cleaned rooms and was paid for it on Saturday afternoon, no-one knows what happened to the money, but it was enough for a bed if she had chosen to spend it thusly.

I've never suggested that Stride...or any prostitute...didn't earn money many different ways.

Only Israel Schwartz says that Liz was seen talking to a man after 12:35,

So PC Smith no longer counts? And what about earlier that night? We're discussing Stride's last night, not just the morning of her murder.

Brown is almost certainly mistaken as to whom he saw

Actually, James Brown said he was "almost certain' that it WAS Stride he saw. If you know something Brown, the police, and we don't know, please share.

so there is only the Inquest absentee to rest your "solicitation" assumptions upon Tom.

You mean the sequestered witness, Israel Schwartz?

She was seen talking to a few men throughout the evening, and seen slipping away to dark corners with none of them.

She was found murdered in a dark corner. Come on, get with it. She repeatedly met men in and outside of pubs. She was an alcoholic. She no longer had Kidney's allowance. I shouldn't have to draw you this map to prostitution, so I must conclude you don't WANT her to be a prostitute. You want her to be on a Fenian mission. I'm afraid I can't help you with that.

As to the suggestion of an interruption, perhaps you misunderstand, that Diemshutz's story opens the possibility... or that Abberline said thats what he thought, means that an interruption is a valid conjecture, is nonsense. There is no physical evidence within the known realm that suggests or intimates that an interruption happened. None. It doesnt matter who thought it out loud, its unsupported by all the physical evidence. She was killed. Period.

I'm afraid YOU'RE mistaken, Mike. There is evidence of interruption, there only lacks proof. In fact, there is only evidence that a murder occurred, there's no proof on occurred. But working from the evidence, we reach the conclusions that make the most sense. And keep in mind that I'm not a devotee of the interruption scenario, I only admit it's one of many possibilities. But why it should be discarded as nearly impossible is beyond me. The evidence does not allow us to discount it any more than it allows us to conclude, to the exclusion of everything else, that Stride's killer was interrupted.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

link?

Hello Cris.

"She had a record at Thames Magistrate Court for the previous 3 years that included being arrested for soliciting."

I have not seen this one--only the D & D's. Can you kindly point me to a link?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

evidence

Hello (yet again) CD.

"If her killer was in fact Jack and given the circumstances under which he was operating, is it so unlikely that he might have been scared off prior to Diemschutz arriving? If that happened, what possible evidence would we have of that?"

I would say this--that the throat cut be as deep as the others. Then before mutilation began, an interruption would be more feasible.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

all the facts

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"I think the relevant point here is that there was a connection to her husband."

Yes, but was it recent? (heh-heh)

"If we had all of the facts regarding other murders at this time, I think that the vast majority of them would have some obvious motive, i.e., robbery, jealousy etc. as opposed to someone just running around Whitechapel sticking a knife in people for no good reason."

Completely agree.

"That is why I believe Liz was a victim of Jack. I don't see a motive in her killing that points to anyone being her killer other than Jack."

But look at your dicta above, "If we had all of the facts. . ." We don't. But if we DID, perhaps we would no longer believe in Jack?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

verbal statement

Hello CD. Thanks. Perhaps I am relying too much on verbal statements?

If you have one from Liz or Kate please share and I'll change my stance.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

All of these women (with the possible exception of Kelly) had a history of doing menial work from time to time... but not usually between 12 and 6 a.m.

No, we don't know with any certainty why Elizabeth Stride was outside of 40 Berner St. at that hour. But unlike many other uncertainties there are a multitude of contemporaneous clues as to why she was there. The police thought she was soliciting. Dr. Blackwell referenced her 'class' by the way she was dressed. Thomas Bates mentions what she did when she had to; the lady from Tiger Bay, also. She had a record at Thames Magistrate Court for the previous 3 years that included being arrested for soliciting. She was probably the only one of the so-called canonicals to actually have been arrested for soliciting... Not to mention reportedly being seen with several different men in the space of little more than an hour.

Of course, this has been debated ad nauseum over the recent years and I would not be redundant here, except for the fact that some new members may not be aware of certain facts. No one's going to change the minds of agenda driven Ripperologists.

What you are describing above Hunter is a classic Unfortunate profile. Not a prostitutes profile. This woman obviously sought work that she was trained to do and found it, that last day she was "employed". She stated that she had been at work among the Jews, is it so far fetched that she might be standing outside a Jewish mens club after a meeting on some employment premise, relating to the club, a member, the meeting, or the impending High Holidays which were to begin the next day I believe.

If you want to use circumstantial evidence to support the soliciting ideas then you should be aware that the same technique works when assessing other possible answers Hunter.

Circumstantially, I see employment as a possible reason. As do I see potential for a social encounter.

Cheers mate

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

I haven't talked to you in a long time. Hope you are doing well.

As for evidence of an interruption, you are quite right, there is none. That would require Liz on her back with her dress pulled up and a cut to her abdomen but no organs removed. But we also have to ask ourselves could an interruption have occurred without any evidence? Is that possible? Is it a reasonable assumption? I think the answer to that is clearly yes. If her killer was in fact Jack and given the circumstances under which he was operating, is it so unlikely that he might have been scared off prior to Diemschutz arriving? If that happened, what possible evidence would we have of that?

c.d.

Hi cd,

It has been some time, Im good, hope you are as well.

I believe youve struck upon the main point here cd,.. because we have no evidence that something happened it is "unreasonable" to state that such an occurrence was "probable" or "likely" nonetheless. Without any evidence to support a belief it is little more than that, and in this instance the evidence does not indicate we should be considering a scenario where the killer is left unsatisfied or unable to complete his goal.

Your point is valid,.... what if something, anything, had scared him off after the throat cut and before anything else may have happened. How would we know?

We would see some evidence cd. A man seen scurrying away by Louis or Fanny, Liz turned onto her back, Liz looking like she was hastily discarded, not looking as if "gently lain down",... there are many ways of determining what may likely have occurred using only the crime scene evidence.

The evidence here suggests that the killer just let go of her scarf when she lay on her side bleeding out, and he left her there in his own good time, and on his own terms. He was not evidently chased away.

There is as much evidence for speculating he stood there and watched her for a minute or two as there is for suggesting he was interrupted, neither suggestion is warranted based on that criteria.

Cheers cd

[Hunter]

There is ample evidence that Liz Stride was employed as a charwoman/maid/nanny after having spent a few years prostituting to support herself while still in Sweden, there is also evidence that she helped run a coffee shop, that she acted as a maid for a relation of a policeman and that she had told close friends she had "been at work among the Jews" recently. She cleaned rooms and was paid for it on Saturday afternoon, no-one knows what happened to the money, but it was enough for a bed if she had chosen to spend it thusly.

All of these women (with the possible exception of Kelly) had a history of doing menial work from time to time... but not usually between 12 and 6 a.m.

No, we don't know with any certainty why Elizabeth Stride was outside of 40 Berner St. at that hour. But unlike many other uncertainties there are a multitude of contemporaneous clues as to why she was there. The police thought she was soliciting. Dr. Blackwell referenced her 'class' by the way she was dressed. Thomas Bates mentions what she did when she had to; the lady from Tiger Bay, also. She had a record at Thames Magistrate Court for the previous 3 years that included being arrested for soliciting. She was probably the only one of the so-called canonicals to actually have been arrested for soliciting... Not to mention reportedly being seen with several different men in the space of little more than an hour.

Of course, this has been debated ad nauseum over the recent years and I would not be redundant here, except for the fact that some new members may not be aware of certain facts. No one's going to change the minds of agenda driven Ripperologists.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

I haven't talked to you in a long time. Hope you are doing well.

As for evidence of an interruption, you are quite right, there is none. That would require Liz on her back with her dress pulled up and a cut to her abdomen but no organs removed. But we also have to ask ourselves could an interruption have occurred without any evidence? Is that possible? Is it a reasonable assumption? I think the answer to that is clearly yes. If her killer was in fact Jack and given the circumstances under which he was operating, is it so unlikely that he might have been scared off prior to Diemschutz arriving? If that happened, what possible evidence would we have of that?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Lynn,

Stride had a history of prostitution, a friend of hers said she was actively prostituting (start reading my stuff as I read yours!), and on the night she died she was seen standing, with a man, in front of no less than three drinking establishments. This is strong evidence of solicitation. Strong enough to allow us to conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that she was soliciting. Now, this is not PROOF, nor does it allow us to concluded beyond ALL doubt that she was soliciting, so I'll give you that. But to look at the same evidence and say 'she was not soliciting' would be akin to seeing a known crack addict standing in front of three crack houses on the same day with a pipe in his hand, and concluding 'based on the evidence, I'd say this boy is clean as a whistle.'

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

There is ample evidence that Liz Stride was employed as a charwoman/maid/nanny after having spent a few years prostituting to support herself while still in Sweden, there is also evidence that she helped run a coffee shop, that she acted as a maid for a relation of a policeman and that she had told close friends she had "been at work among the Jews" recently. She cleaned rooms and was paid for it on Saturday afternoon, no-one knows what happened to the money, but it was enough for a bed if she had chosen to spend it thusly.

Only Israel Schwartz says that Liz was seen talking to a man after 12:35, Brown is almost certainly mistaken as to whom he saw, so there is only the Inquest absentee to rest your "solicitation" assumptions upon Tom. She was seen talking to a few men throughout the evening, and seen slipping away to dark corners with none of them.

As to the suggestion of an interruption, perhaps you misunderstand, that Diemshutz's story opens the possibility... or that Abberline said thats what he thought, means that an interruption is a valid conjecture, is nonsense. There is no physical evidence within the known realm that suggests or intimates that an interruption happened. None. It doesnt matter who thought it out loud, its unsupported by all the physical evidence. She was killed. Period.

If you believe that you possess some information pertaining specifically to the physical evidence and the presence of data that suggests an interruption, that isnt generally known, then I suppose you might have had a point when you made your remarks to me.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello Mac. Thought experiment time. By chance, I was reading about the Brown murder in Westminster just today. As you must know, she died by having her throat cut about 2 hours before Liz and only 3 miles away.

Although her mentally disturbed husband readily confessed, suppose he had not.

I submit to you that we would have threads discussing the thesis that "Jack" killed Mrs. Brown, but was interrupted before mutilation began. Next, he went to Berner street and did for Liz. ANOTHER interruption. By now, he was in a frenzy and found Kate at Mitre Square. Success!

And I PROMISE you, someone would be counting the 3 miles from Westminster to Berner and demonstrating the plausibility of the 1-2 hour time frame.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I think the relevant point here is that there was a connection to her husband. If we had all of the facts regarding other murders at this time, I think that the vast majority of them would have some obvious motive, i.e., robbery, jealousy etc. as opposed to someone just running around Whitechapel sticking a knife in people for no good reason. That is why I believe Liz was a victim of Jack. I don't see a motive in her killing that points to anyone being her killer other than Jack.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Mac. Thanks.

I agree that Polly and Annie were prostituting when killed. I'd like some evidence for the others.

It seems to me that, given one faulty assumption, more must follow. Soon, the case is unrecognisable.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

How do we know that Polly and Annie were prostituting when killed? Aren't you really saying that the evidence that we have tends to indicate that? Not trying to be smart ass here but it seems as if you are using a different standard as to whether Liz was doing that as well.

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Miakaal

You need to check the evidence regarding the room she shared with Kidney...and perhaps with special regard to when/where she relocated her most precious possessions...

All the best

Dave

[miakaal4]

Have just checked a couple of books, and apart from a handkerchief, Stride doesn't seem to have had any possessions at all!? Would she spend money on fresh breath if she was that skint?