Diemschutz arrival

[lynn cates]

thoughts

Hello Tom. Thanks. I indeed read your work.

As you know, I have reservations about the reports of Liz that night. No problem with PC Smith, though.

Her history? Well, I doubt Liz was a virgin. (heh-heh) The question, in my eyes, is, "Was she soliciting that night?"

At any rate, if I had to pick one for solicitation, it would be Liz over Kate--hands down.

Cheers.
LC

[sleekviper]

Tom,
Wouldn't it be more along the lines of saying that someone was seen in a restaurant that had lost a huge amount of weight, so they must be back to gaining weight again? Without direct proof, it seems a bit much to stick every male that she meets as a customer. Between the darkness, location to the party, amount of probable time with body, and amount of sightings with men that evening, if anyone was going to have proof of working it should have been Stride. Unless it is either going to be said that a killer wanted her money more than to do other things to the body, or she is a victim of another hand that had money on the mind, I am not so sure that proof doesn't float the other way with Stride. She very well may have been, but would keep that aspect in the 50/50 club more than one way or the other.

[Tom_Wescott]

Proof vs evidence of solicitation

Lynn,

Stride had a history of prostitution, a friend of hers said she was actively prostituting (start reading my stuff as I read yours!), and on the night she died she was seen standing, with a man, in front of no less than three drinking establishments. This is strong evidence of solicitation. Strong enough to allow us to conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that she was soliciting. Now, this is not PROOF, nor does it allow us to concluded beyond ALL doubt that she was soliciting, so I'll give you that. But to look at the same evidence and say 'she was not soliciting' would be akin to seeing a known crack addict standing in front of three crack houses on the same day with a pipe in his hand, and concluding 'based on the evidence, I'd say this boy is clean as a whistle.'

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

There is no clear connection to the area with regards Maybrick! I think you should do some more research there, Phil.

If Phil starts researching Maybrick I'll thump him on the head!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

hawking

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"Ah, so what evidence is there that Chapman was soliciting?"

Her statement when she left. And at that time of night, she wasn't likely hawking needle work.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

I Robot.

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"I doubt that there would be any threads discussing whether Mrs Brown was killed by the Ripper.
She was killed in the front parlour of her house miles away from the East End."

Must Jack ALWAYS behave the same way? He's not a robot is he? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hello Lynn

Being seen in company with a man is hardly proof of soliciting.

Ah, so what evidence is their that Chapman was soliciting?

[Jon Guy]

Hello again Lynn

Thought experiment time. By chance, I was reading about the Brown murder in Westminster just today. As you must know, she died by having her throat cut about 2 hours before Liz and only 3 miles away.

Although her mentally disturbed husband readily confessed, suppose he had not.

I submit to you that we would have threads discussing the thesis that "Jack" killed Mrs. Brown, but was interrupted before mutilation began. Next, he went to Berner street and did for Liz. ANOTHER interruption. By now, he was in a frenzy and found Kate at Mitre Square. Success!

And I PROMISE you, someone would be counting the 3 miles from Westminster to Berner and demonstrating the plausibility of the 1-2 hour time frame.

I doubt that there would be any threads discussing whether Mrs Brown was killed by the Ripper.
She was killed in the front parlour of her house miles away from the East End.
Even if her husband had not had a nervous breakdown and confessed, everyone in the street heard the argument that was taking place in the house.
But, if Mrs Brown had been from a common lodging house in Flower and Dean street and was just visiting Regents Gardens that night ..then maybe ..

[lynn cates]

jolly

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Being seen in company with a man is hardly proof of soliciting.

Polly? "It won't take long. See what a jolly new . . . "

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

I agree that Polly and Annie were prostituting when killed. I'd like some evidence for the others.

What evidence do you have for Nichols solicting ? She and Mc Kenzie are the two from the files that we don`t have in the company of a man shortly before her death.

No doubt she was, she almost admitted as much to Emily Holland, but with you asking for evidence for the others: Tabram (soldiers,) Chapman (Long`s Man) Stride ( Best and Gardener/ Marshalls man/ Schwartz), Eddowes (church passage man) Kelly (Mr Blotchy- Mr A), Mylett (little and large) and Coles (Sadler/ cheesecutter man) .. just wondering ... :-)

[Tempus omnia revelat]

Yeah, Tom has a point there, sometimes I think we give a little less credit to those guys who were doing the foot pounding and asking the questions. Abberline was a good copper, he knew a lot of faces in the area, but got no-where. This alone could be pointing to a killer somewhere outside Whitechapel.

Or to the fact that the East End was teeming with misfits. Read the Ultimate Source Book to see how many people wandered around with knives, went into pubs all bloody... Is there not a mention in the surviving files somewhere that they were considering 300 individuals?

I don't think there is very much evidence that we should be looking outside Whitechapel and environs. That is where the house-to-house search was carried out; where the City cops staked-out a suspect; where Anderson and Swanson believed the culprit resided.

We can play games with the Druitts, the Maybricks (ha!) and the rest, but there is no clear connection to the area for any of them. Not a jot.

Not that the police did NOT look outside the area when given a lead - Sanders the medical student is an example; Abberline went to essex on one occasion to speak to a suspect did he not?

But to me, and it seems to those responsible in 1888, all roads led to Whitechapel.

Phil H

There is no clear connection to the area with regards Maybrick! I think you should do some more research there, Phil.


Kind regards,


Tempus

[miakaal4]

Hi Phil H,And I would say again that the argument is a weak one. The only real evidence, if you cancall it that, regarding the culprit living in the area is that s/he seemed to know the area well, and managed to avoid the cops.
It couldn't be someone in Bethnal Green, or the City, or someone who grew up there but now lived in Surrey and went back to work or visit? Why on earth does it have to be someone living in Whitechapel?
Again it goes back to the old school of "It must have been..."

[Phil H]

Yeah, Tom has a point there, sometimes I think we give a little less credit to those guys who were doing the foot pounding and asking the questions. Abberline was a good copper, he knew a lot of faces in the area, but got no-where. This alone could be pointing to a killer somewhere outside Whitechapel.

Or to the fact that the East End was teeming with misfits. Read the Ultimate Source Book to see how many people wandered around with knives, went into pubs all bloody... Is there not a mention in the surviving files somewhere that they were considering 300 individuals?

I don't think there is very much evidence that we should be looking outside Whitechapel and environs. That is where the house-to-house search was carried out; where the City cops staked-out a suspect; where Anderson and Swanson believed the culprit resided.

We can play games with the Druitts, the Maybricks (ha!) and the rest, but there is no clear connection to the area for any of them. Not a jot.

Not that the police did NOT look outside the area when given a lead - Sanders the medical student is an example; Abberline went to essex on one occasion to speak to a suspect did he not?

But to me, and it seems to those responsible in 1888, all roads led to Whitechapel.

Phil H

[miakaal4]

Yeah, Tom has a point there, sometimes I think we give a little less credit to those guys who were doing the foot pounding and asking the questions. Abberline was a good copper, he knew a lot of faces in the area, but got no-where. This alone could be pointing to a killer somewhere outside Whitechapel.

[Tom_Wescott]

I am amazed that people want to insert an interruption into this murder

People such as Diemshitz? Abberline? Everyone else who was actually there? Do you ever stop to wonder how amazed they'd be at the stuff you've suggested on these boards?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott