Diemschutz arrival

[Wickerman]

Ok here the same 'bow' was then described as a 'knotted'..

"...I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted,..."

So if the knot was tight the killer pulled it so, as suggested by Blackwell. So, was it tight enough to choke her?

"The Coroner: Was the silk scarf tight enough to prevent her calling out? - I could not say that. "

Shame, he did not elaborate on that answer.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

I don't believe it would have been a long scarf, and the knot would have been tied to the side by Stride herself. The knot would have become tighter if the scarf were pulled from the other side, not looser as Harry suggested.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

I believe it was stated that the bow in the scarf was found off centre on Stride's throat,so we can assume the bow at least was still in place.Which is interesting,given that any excessive force on the ends,such as would be used if pulling Stide,would surely unravel the bow.

I had wondered if bow was the correct term, it was pulled tight and to the left.
If you make a true bow as for instance when tying a shoelace, I can't envisage how it can be pulled tighter.
To tighten a bow you have to re-tie it, so perhaps 'bow' was not the correct term.

There are dozens of ways to tie a scarf, my wife suggested this way.



But the above could hardly be described as a handkerchief, which are usually square.

Alternately, Stride may have been wearing a silk headscarf which are square and tie under the jaw when worn over the head, like so..



especially as it had been raining that night.

Regards, Jon S.

[harry]

I believe it was stated that the bow in the scarf was found off centre on Stride's throat,so we can assume the bow at least was still in place.Which is interesting,given that any excessive force on the ends,such as would be used if pulling Stide,would surely unravel the bow.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Tom,

To respond to some of your points made..

So PC Smith no longer counts? And what about earlier that night? We're discussing Stride's last night, not just the morning of her murder.


The time I gave was 12:35, that was PC Smiths sighting, the last one by someone we can trust.

Actually, James Brown said he was "almost certain' that it WAS Stride he saw. If you know something Brown, the police, and we don't know, please share.

Brown also said he did not see a flower on her dress, and that he saw nothing light in color about either of them, that he wasnt sure if the man wore a hat, and that the man was of average build. That doesnt sound to me like a positive ID and the arrangement that Liz wore was white maidenfern with a red flower in the middle, one which she certainly had on her at 12:45am.

You mean the sequestered witness, Israel Schwartz?

Ive heard lots of people speculate about that but to my knowledge no evidence has been presented to-date to validate those assumptions. Lawende was sequestered, indicating that the City police felt he was a legitimate witness. Some evidence would be required if you intend to have these remarks considered valid. And that still wouldnt matter a hill of beans.

She was found murdered in a dark corner. Come on, get with it. She repeatedly met men in and outside of pubs. She was an alcoholic. She no longer had Kidney's allowance. I shouldn't have to draw you this map to prostitution, so I must conclude you don't WANT her to be a prostitute. You want her to be on a Fenian mission. I'm afraid I can't help you with that.


She was found feet from the street on a property that had ample "dark corners" if one chose to seek them out. She was in a dark spot created behind an open gate. Ive heard you and others make many claims about the character of these women, proclaiming them all working prostitutes. The only women we have evidence, (by their own admission), were soliciting when they die is Polly and Annie, throw in Martha if you so choose. I can say categorically that Ive never suggested Fenians were involved in the murder of Stride, but I have suggested that there is no need at all to even consider a Ripper for the culprit.

I'm afraid YOU'RE mistaken, Mike. There is evidence of interruption, there only lacks proof. In fact, there is only evidence that a murder occurred, there's no proof on occurred. But working from the evidence, we reach the conclusions that make the most sense. And keep in mind that I'm not a devotee of the interruption scenario, I only admit it's one of many possibilities. But why it should be discarded as nearly impossible is beyond me. The evidence does not allow us to discount it any more than it allows us to conclude, to the exclusion of everything else, that Stride's killer was interrupted.


That is one screwed up paragraph. There is no "evidence" that an interruption happened at all...there are opinions one did, but no evidence, there is however proof of that a murder or manslaughter occurred by virtue of the dead woman found and determined not to be a suicide, and when you use the word "evidence" you may want to substitute " what I believe" instead, because based on the physical evidence, I cant believe this needs repeating, THERE ARE NO GROUNDS FOR AN ASSUMPTION OF AN INTERRUPTION in the murder of Liz Stride. There are opinions.....and everyone has one, just like *** *****.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The ONLY interruption that night was Liz being interrupted while about to have a breath mint.

Cheers Tom

[lynn cates]

C D

Hello Colin. I was referring to CD. His dictum involved whatever it took to kill.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Random?

Now, I am to suppose that everything else is just random and by the same chap?

Hi Lynn,

Who said anything was "just random"?



Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

dead

Hello Velma.

"say that the killer grabbed Liz in the dark and was strangling her with her own scarf, when she keeled over in sudden cardiac arrest.

What would the killer have done?"

Possibly left? If she is dead, why bother to cut her throat? Besides, if she were dead, would she have bled much?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

intention

Hello Colin.

"if there was an interruption we cannot rule out the possibility that such mutilation was intended."

Indeed. And, as long as we are discussing intentions, we cannot rule out cannibalism and necrophilia. Sure, no evidence, but both may have been intended.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

script

Hello CD. Thanks.

"If Jack were her killer, do you think that he gave any thought whatsoever as to the deepness of the cut? Her killer did what was needed to kill her."

Very well. But why the stark similarity in Polly and Annie? Same depth, same twin cuts. Looks like the assailant read from a script. Now, I am to suppose that everything else is just random and by the same chap?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hi Curious

Possibly, but Dr Phillips examined her heart:

The heart was small; left ventricle firmly contracted, right less so. Right ventricle full of dark clot; left absolutely empty.

To me, it sounds like she could have a heart problem, only cos I know nowt about these things. But Dr Phillips went on to conclude that:

The Coroner: What was the cause of death? - Undoubtedly the loss of blood from the left carotid artery and the division of the windpipe.

ok, let's say she just dropped like a dead weight in his arms. Even with the sudden cardiac arrest, I think from what little I read she would still like 2-3 minutes.

I'm wondering if the killer enjoyed watching the terror in his victims' eyes, the begging?

And denied that, either he left in disgust as his game was ruined, or somehow, going off script like that startled him and he just left.

sorry, I've got to run, meeting someone. Should not have started something I didn't have time to discuss.

Thans, Jon.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Curious

Possibly, but Dr Phillips examined her heart:

The heart was small; left ventricle firmly contracted, right less so. Right ventricle full of dark clot; left absolutely empty.

To me, it sounds like she could have a heart problem, only cos I know nowt about these things. But Dr Phillips went on to conclude that:

The Coroner: What was the cause of death? - Undoubtedly the loss of blood from the left carotid artery and the division of the windpipe.

[curious]

The evidence here suggests that the killer just let go of her scarf when she lay on her side bleeding out, and he left her there in his own good time, and on his own terms. He was not evidently chased away.

There is as much evidence for speculating he stood there and watched her for a minute or two as there is for suggesting he was interrupted, neither suggestion is warranted based on that criteria.

Cheers cd

Hi, Michael, all;

Have we ever considered how a killer might react if Liz had just suddenly dropped dead in terror when he grabbed her?

We have been told:

A. she was one of the women Dr. B . . . was speaking too and she was afraid

B. that she was extremely pale, more pale than when she had been seen earlier that night

C. her forefinger and thumb grasped the cachous in a way that is difficult to explain.

So, my question is: say that the killer grabbed Liz in the dark and was strangling her with her own scarf, when she keeled over in sudden cardiac arrest.

What would the killer have done? Annie struggled and pulled at a ligature. There is no sign of that with Liz.

Was Liz so terrified she just dropped dead and spooked her killer?

curious

[Bridewell]

And keep in mind that I'm not a devotee of the interruption scenario, I only admit it's one of many possibilities. But why it should be discarded as nearly impossible is beyond me. The evidence does not allow us to discount it any more than it allows us to conclude, to the exclusion of everything else, that Stride's killer was interrupted.

Hi Tom,

That seems to me to be a pretty balanced summation.

Just as an aside, we often read how there was "no mutilation" in the case of Stride but of course, if there was an interruption we cannot rule out the possibility that such mutilation was intended.

Regards, Bridewell

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Ceeds, great post, and point well made, although I'm afraid it will fall on deaf ears. Common sense just can't compete with exciting intrigue and Fenian conspiracies!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott