Diemschutz arrival

[Colin Roberts]

I would add a second prerequisite, a degree in logic.

Your arrogance is as contemptible as - I am sure - my own must be!

[lynn cates]

pre reqs

Hello Colin. Thanks.

I would add a second prerequisite, a degree in logic.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Polly

Hello CD. Thanks.

Of course, weight placed is solely up to you.

Again, if there were only 2 murders--Annie and Kate--I might regard them by the same hand, disregarding the differences.

But once Polly enters the mix . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

close

Hello Jon. That's pretty close. I take it you have seen my re-enactment?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

As for my Tiger Woods analogy, if you had a video of him teeing off that disguised who was hitting the ball, you would say "oh yeah, that's Tiger, yep, that one was classic Tiger, that one too." "Wow, who the hell hit that one?" Well, guess what? That one was Tiger, too.

Tiger wants to be consistent but Jack doesn't give a damn about it. He just wants his victim dead.

c.d.

Having played some competitive golf in my lifetime cd I can tell you that if you were to look at images from the shoulders down of Tiger Woods as he does his pre-shot routine, the address, how he sets up at the ball....you would see virtually identical behavior and movement. What happens during the second the swing takes place is really what affects the shot outcome. The reason the repetition is so exact is a function partly of muscle memory, having addressed the ball and repeating that behavior thousands of times before. Its not a conscious thing...at least off the driving range.

My point being....if this was Jack, and if Israel told the truth... (making BSM the suspect most probably "Jack" based on the timing alone), then he approached the woman in a manner that drew attention to himself, and the spot chosen for the murder was not conducive to private mutilations.

Thats not Jacks pre-shot routine. The man that killed Polly then Annie repeated his process, showed consistent skills with respect to knife skill and knowledge, and he was more invasive when he had more privacy. Right in Bucks Row vs the backyard of a house on Hanbury to me shows a man that learned to get what he was after he couldnt do it on the street.

The man that killed Liz Stride struggled with her, based on the scarf and some kind of choking of the victim, cut her unlike any previous or forthcoming victims, and abandoned her on her side while she was incapacitated.

Cheers

[Colin Roberts]

... Thought experiment time. By chance, I was reading about the Brown murder in Westminster just today. As you must know, she died by having her throat cut about 2 hours before Liz and only 3 miles away.

Although her mentally disturbed husband readily confessed, suppose he had not.

I submit to you that we would have threads discussing the thesis that "Jack" killed Mrs. Brown, but was interrupted before mutilation began. Next, he went to Berner street and did for Liz. ANOTHER interruption. By now, he was in a frenzy and found Kate at Mitre Square. Success!

And I PROMISE you, someone would be counting the 3 miles from Westminster to Berner and demonstrating the plausibility of the 1-2 hour time frame.

Just as someone else would be laying the blame on Fenians or the Okhrana!

"And I PROMISE you, someone would be counting the 3 miles from Westminster to Berner and demonstrating the plausibility of the 1-2 hour time frame."

And doing so would be nothing less than prudent!

If you had rolled a pair of dice with the knowledge that the outcome had been something other than 'Seven', then the single most rational wager that I could make – in the absence of the knowledge that you possessed – would be that the outcome had been just that: 'Seven'. Any other wager on my part would be based purely on a hunch, even though the probability of 'Seven' in this particular instance would be a mere 16.67%.

~~~~~~~~~

Soliciting, … or not soliciting …

Interrupted specifically by Diemschitz, … or not interrupted at all …

I believe that a fundamental knowledge of the Yorkshire Ripper case should be an outright prerequisite for active membership to these forums!

[Michael W Richards]

Just saw the scarf illustrations....I believe there is some ambiguity as to what kind of "scarf' we are talking about here. There are and were many styles of neckwear that could be described as a scarf,.... there were longer scarves that were made of wool and used for the warmth factor, and there were dressier silk scarves, shorter, patterned, used primarily as wardrobe accents, there were silk ribbons that were tied about the neck as an accessory, then there were cotton scarves, used to tie back a womans hair while doing housework, tied around the neck to absorb sweat, more utilitarian....,

Heres a couple of images of one of those styles;

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

"If Jack were her killer, do you think that he gave any thought whatsoever as to the deepness of the cut? Her killer did what was needed to kill her."

Very well. But why the stark similarity in Polly and Annie? Same depth, same twin cuts. Looks like the assailant read from a script. Now, I am to suppose that everything else is just random and by the same chap?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I agree that the dissimilarity in the knife cuts is something that needs to be addressed. However, I just can't give it a lot of weight. There are just too many factors that could account for it, i.e., a different knife, his grip on the knife, the angle of the attack, how his victim was struggling, clothes that might have gotten in the way, etc.

Plus we are only comparing cuts made to the C5. If there were 25 victims and 24 had exactly the same cuts and one was completely different, then it would be a different story.

As for my Tiger Woods analogy, if you had a video of him teeing off that disguised who was hitting the ball, you would say "oh yeah, that's Tiger, yep, that one was classic Tiger, that one too." "Wow, who the hell hit that one?" Well, guess what? That one was Tiger, too.

Tiger wants to be consistent but Jack doesn't give a damn about it. He just wants his victim dead.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

I believe it was stated that the bow in the scarf was found off centre on Stride's throat,so we can assume the bow at least was still in place.Which is interesting,given that any excessive force on the ends,such as would be used if pulling Stide,would surely unravel the bow.

Hi Harry,

I believe the scarf was knotted and twisted to the left when she was found, thats why it didnt come undone...it was knotted rather than tied with a bow. My guess is that most women and men who wore scarves at that time knotted them, as many sailors would have.

I believe the "twist" in the scarf and knot suggests that as the killer had hold of the scarf Elizabeth's position changed, and he retained his grip on the scarf as she fell on her left side.

Still a good question that needs answering....did he cut her as she fell back onto her side, did he cut her while choking her using the scarf, or did he cut her after she was already lying down?

Best regards Harry.

[Wickerman]

Hello Harry. If one equates bow with knot, there is no mystery.

Cheers.
LC

Right Lynn, this information has come via men (witness plus recorder), a woman might have been more precise. The knot of the bow being the point where it was tied, as opposed to the loops & tails?

In trying to picture the assault as described by Blackwell, if the killer pulled her head back with one hand by the knot of the scarf, she is off balance and falling to his left?
He runs the knife across her throat while she stumbled downward, then her body weight is suspended by her scarf, similar to her hanging by the scarf momentarily.

The knife ran so close to the scarf that it frayed the edge of the scarf? Then wouldn't we think the scarf would be sucked into the open wound?
Blackwell doesn't appear to suggest this but I can see this being the case if the cut was so close to the edge of the scarf (per Phillips). The fleshy part of her neck at the point of the cut would just collapse and the scarf would end up inside the wound.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this but, I'm trying to picture just how tight that scarf was.
- If it was not inside the wound then it was not that close, or,
- If it was so close then it was not that tight.

If it was not that tight then it was not tight enough to choke her?

Maybe, or not?
Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

knotty boy

Hello Harry. If one equates bow with knot, there is no mystery.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

off balance

Hello Jon.

"So, was it tight enough to choke her?"

Perhaps not more than for a moment. But it was enough to take her off balance.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

illustration

Hello Jon. Well done. Excellent illustration.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

tighten

Hello Harry.

"any excessive force on the ends,such as would be used if pulling Stride,would surely unravel the bow."

That depends on the knot. If a standard slip knot is used, pulling on the end would tighten it.

Cheers.
LC

[harry]

Tom,
You and I are both correct,as can be explained by a knotted tie and a bow tie.Pull the ends of a bow tie and it will unravel,pull the ends of a knotted tie and it will tighten.Another example of the information we are faced with being contradictory.I amm sure there was evidence given of there being a bow.