Diemschutz arrival

[Monty]

Theres no evidence to suggest he was interrupted, so to state you have a fresh open mind isnt entirely correct is it Spring heeled Jim? ;-)

Monty

[Spring heeled Jim]

Thanks for the reply Fisherman,

I have no intention of doing anything other than relying upon the established facts when it comes to any opinions I form but that won,t stop me being intrigued by the various theories, ideas conjecture etc

But what do you think with regards my points relating to Strides killer? Yes I am convinced the killer was interrupted in some way so couldn't proceed with mutilation. Who interrupted/disturbed the killer we will never know.

Just my opinion but I cant square the known information about the manner in which the murder took place with anything other than a premeditated killing. What I mean by premeditated is that someone knew they were going to kill that evening. If they knew Stride planned to kill her and orchestrated the situation why choose that location? Or the other option they simply went out that evening with the intention to kill someone they may have ended up in such a risky scenario.

I hope I am making sense

[Fisherman]

Spring heeled Jim:

" I like to think that having a mind free from preconceived notions or the latest theories helps me to look at the facts from a fresh perspective?"

Enjoy it while it lasts - all five minutes of it.

"many seem to like counting her out just because it's cool" (Writer: Tom Wescott)

See what I mean?

The best,
Fisherman

[Spring heeled Jim]

Hi Tom thanks a lot for the reply,

The number of people you suggest to carry knives is interesting but would that be the case at such a time in the evening/morning if carrying them was work related? And in the wake of the previous killings would men still casually carry knives or make sure they left them at work/home for fear of being a suspect?


I like to think the points I made are valid ones. I can't see why people would think someone other than JTR would subdue via the neck, I think that's the best description I can think of given what I have read about the case, THEN produce a knife and cut a throat? If it was a random act of violence why no stabbing and why the apparent strangulation then knife wound?

And if premeditated and not JTR then why such a dicey location?

I think he was uninterrupted to answer to question posed at the start of this thread

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Jim,

Many, many, many east end men carried knives, although to be fair, it was often for purposes of work. But also protection. Of course, very few would be inclined to just pull it out and slice a woman, but these things do happen. What makes Stride stand out (aside from the timing with Eddowes murder) is that it was near pitch black in that side yard and he was able to kill her with no nicks or 'false starts'. He knew what he was doing, and there's no evidence of it having been a domestic crime. No evidence she knew her killer. And no evidence of a struggle. While some people, such as Garry Wroe, genuinely believe Stride was not a Ripper victim, many seem to like counting her out just because it's cool or makes them feel 'cutting edge', but the weight of the evidence in 1888 led the investigators to conclude she was a Ripper victim. And while it's certainly possible that she was not, that evidence hasn't changed and it still points predominantly to the same conclusion. However, it's also possible that she was killed by a different man than was Eddowes, and the two were working in tandem.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Spring heeled Jim]

Well firstly hello everyone this is my first ever post on here and I must say what a fascinating thread, as most are.

I am in comparison to most people here a complete newcomer to the facts and conjecture surrounding the events in whitechapel during the autumn of 1888. But I like to think that having a mind free from preconceived notions or the latest theories helps me to look at the facts from a fresh perspective?

The thing that strikes me about this particular incident is if it was a killing that was not premeditated, for example an argument gone wrong or fit of rage then why was the killer armed with a knife capable of inflicting such a wound and why would they not just stab? I find the idea or someone losing their temper then strangling someone plausible but to then produce a knife and cut their throat is just too much of a stretch for me.

How many men in the east end routinely carried a weapon capable of inflicting such a wound? How many men would then lose their temper and rather than stab decide to strangle, assuming thats what happened and in my mind it is, THEN casually produce a knife and cut a throat?

If it was premeditated, and I think the killing was, then in my mind either

1. It was a killer who killed her simply to satisfy a need to kill/mutilate. The fact there were no mutilations reinforces the interrupted theory in my mind.

2. Someone who she knew wanted to kill Stride for some other reason and decided that arranging to meet her in a decidedly dicey location would be the best way to go about doing it? Hmmmm

Anyhow great forum and some opinion on what I have posted would be much appreciated. Yes I am an insomniac!

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm still trying to figure out Rob's thesis about a club member or attendee.

What are you having trouble with? To my knowledge, Rob (Clack) simply suggested that a clubman killed Stride, and he presumably based this upon the fact that she was killed next to the club, and the fact that such organizations attracted all sorts of desperate folk. Add to this the fact that the ale was flowing freely that night, and Stride would likely have been an unwanted element, and I see it as a perfectly plausible scenario. If Rob has a deeper thesis, or suspect of any kind, related to his idea of a clubman killer, then he's kept it to himself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[harry]

Lynn,
Why a golfer chooses daylight,is to observe where he would like to hit a ball.Why a killer,who chooses to cut throats,might like to wait till his vission allows it,is to obtain the same chance of cutting where he intended.Both might be a little out.

[lynn cates]

Hello Tom. Thanks.

I'm still trying to figure out Rob's thesis about a club member or attendee.

If Schwartz has told the truth, then he and Liz could have an altercation where they go arguing into the yard, after IS and PM run off. He dips into the side door for a couple minutes. When he comes out, she's still there and they resume their argument.

Might work.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

A thought just occurs to me (always dangerous in my case, as you never know where it may lead!). Might Liz have been employed, on a casual basis, to work as a cleaner at the IWMEC? If so, she could have been waiting for the last few punters to leave so that she could start work.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi, Bridewell,
Haven't talked with you in awhile.

I'd never thought of her cleaning the club before. It's possible, but her appearance suggests to me a social occasion instead of waiting to go to work. The clothes brush, the flower, the breath sweetners . . . more social, I think.

Plus, would she have told the doss house/or person to whom she gave the green velvet to hold that she would not be back that evening?

Unless, she expected to be busy until around breakfast time?

How would those things fit together? Do they?

curious

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Colin. You should chat up Mike Richards.

Shame on you, Lynn. What did Colin do to you to deserve that sort of advice?

As for this notion that there were many men wandering around slashing throats in 1888, it's not true. There were one or two Rippers, and then a bunch of husbands who'd cut up their wives, rarely even killing them. Stride was not a domestic murder and it took only one controlled cut to the throat to kill her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Can someone tell me why, if this was not a JtR kill, he did not stab Liz in the chest/heart or throat? Why the grief of a throat cut? If she was struggling or making a noise would killer not just put his hand over her mouth and stab?

Neither Coles nor McKenzie were stabbed in the manner you describe, do you think they were also victims of Jack the Ripper?

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Quien?

Hello (again) Colin. Thanks. But how do we know it was "Jack"?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

M R

Hello Colin. You should chat up Mike Richards.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Hello Mac.

"We know there was a fella knocking about going with prostitutes into dark corners and slitting their throats. Odds are it was Jack."

Really? How do we know this?

Cheers.
LC

From the fact that prostitutes were found in dark corners with their throats slit?

Regards, Bridewell.