Diemschutz arrival

[Spring heeled Jim]

DVV what makes you think it was an expert job? And what is your opinion on Dimshits interrupting the killer to keep the thread on track. Sorry if I have missed an earlier post if you have already stated your opinion on the matter.

[DVV]

Some posters are still underestimating what has been done to Stride. Somebody cut her throat. Skillfully and quickly. She died within seconds and nothing could have saved her. The job was done and well done.

[Spring heeled Jim]

Very true fisherman but the approach of a horse would fit nicely with my idea that whatever disturbed the killer did so in a manner that enabled him to have sufficient time to hide/get away. The approach of a horse and cart would I assume have been audible for some time prior to them reaching the yard whereas as person on foot?

As for the bleeding out well I am no medical expert so couldn't comment as it would just be guesswork. I just work on my own reasoning that if blood is still flowing the interval between wound and discovery of body can't have been that long but as I say I am no medical expert and for all I know blood could still flow 15 minutes after the wound was inflicted?

[miakaal4]

Thanks Fisherman, This leads me to believe that the club is nothing to do with why she is there. I mean if she wanted to pick up a punter from there why not go inside?
It seems likely that she was with a punter, in the dark when she was killed. That she led or was leading him to a dark place, he heard the horse approaching and maybe thought that sound would cover any noise he made to anyone within earshot. What he didn't envisage was the horse coming straight to them. As soon as it pulled into the yard he flicked back into the dark and waited his opportunity to escape.
Controversially, I do not believe the two men Schwartz said he saw were involved. The kill happened ten minutes later.

[Fisherman]

S H Jim:

"when the body was discovered blood was still flowing from the wound, such is my understanding feel free to correct me if I am wrong, that the timing suggests it was Dimshits approach that disturbed the killer."

Bleeding out will be a fast business if all the major vessels of the neck are severed, as was the case with for example Nichols. Stride, though, had only one of her arteries opened, and it was not cut straight off. It is therefore hard to say how long she would have bled. But we can probably bank on it being a comparatively slow process compared to the other canonicals, leaving the field open for different interpretations.

The best,
Fisherman

[Spring heeled Jim]

I agree with what you say fisherman that it could have been anything that disturbed the killer. Its just my opinion if that when the body was discovered blood was still flowing from the wound, such is my understanding feel free to correct me if I am wrong, that the timing suggests it was Dimshits approach that disturbed the killer.

To keep the thread on track yes I do think the killer was spooked in the act by a sound as opposed to being interrupted in the act by Dimshits.

If the neck wound in this case wasn't as deep as others that could to me suggest it was rushed due the fact he was in the process of subduing Stride when he heard someone approaching so couldn't finish the job properly but had to hastily ensure she wouldn't survive.

All supposition and guesswork on my part I know but it makes sense to me seems is logical and does not require any outlandish theories or wild scenarios.

[Fisherman]

Miakaal4:

"Was this a men only place by the way?"

The club? No. One of the clubsmen walked his girlfriend home from the club before returning that night. Women were there regularly.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

S H Jack:

"My point was I think the idea of the killer looking up to to see a pony in front of him is absurd I am sure he would have heard it approaching over cobbles long before it arrived at the yard entrance. So interrupted may be the wrong term to use alerted to the approach of someone is how I would word it."

One thing that relates to this is that all victims had their necks cut to the bone - save Stride. And if the killer heard Diemschitzīpony trotting along for some serious time, then surely he would have had sufficient time to cut all the way...?

So maybe if he was disturbed, he was disturbed by something else than Pickfordīs Pr...sorry, Diemschitzīpony? Like somebody grabbing the handle of the club door from the inside, opening it?

Stride is a hard nut.

The best,
Fisherman

[miakaal4]

The conjecture around what Liz was doing hanging around at that time of night etc is very interesting, however it could get out of hand. The flower and sweet smelling breath could indeed be telling us that she was waiting for someone.
Was this a men only place by the way?
But her appearence could also mean that she wanted to attract a customer, and was waiting outside the club because she knew lots of half drunk dudes would be coming out, feeling the itch.

[Spring heeled Jim]

Fisherman I know there is an amazing capacity for ripperologists to source information but the name of this pony would impress me a lot lol Even if its hardly going to solve the case!

My point was I think the idea of the killer looking up to to see a pony in front of him is absurd I am sure he would have heard it approaching over cobbles long before it arrived at the yard entrance. So interrupted may be the wrong term to use alerted to the approach of someone is how I would word it.

And in my mind relating to the kiling itself I feel that whoever subdued her would have used two hands. Do people agree she was subdued prior to the neck cut? And if yes that this in all likelyhood required the killer to use two hands?

[Fisherman]

S P Jim:

"I am sure a casebooker has his horses name "

"Pickfordīs pride". No, wait, that was the OTHER horse...

Seriously, though, I have never heard the true name of Deimschitzīs pony!

The best,
Fisherman

[Spring heeled Jim]

I agree totally monty even just hearing the name JTR and joining this forum is going to have some affect however small on the way I/you conceive things regarding the case.

However I am sure I have read somewhere on here recently a statement regarding the manner in which Stride was cut and the officials/dr's opinions on her positioning when the neck wound happened hence my surmising she was subdued first then cut which in my mind does not tally with a random rage/anger attack. It could but not to my mind.

I feel that interruption is a very valid theory although interruption by whom is where things get a LOT more shaky but by all probability I personally think if interruption parse is attributable to anyone its Dimshit's horses feet. I am sure a casebooker has his horses name

[Monty]

Hi Spring Heeled Jim,

I was, in my crude and clumsey way, making a point which applies to us all, myself included.

That is we are all prejudiced. Its human nature. No one on this planet can state their mind is truly open, not even Phil Carter.

My apologies for making my point with you as the 'target'. It was unfair of me.

By the way, you raise some good questions. I feel in was more a manipulation, a pulling of Stride via her scarf into position than a strangling.

Monty

[Spring heeled Jim]

Thanks again for the replys people.

Monty when I said a fresh open mind I meant I have no real preformed ideas or prejudices regarding anything that happened more that I have started to form my own opinions which I like to think although obviously far from original are actually my own and valid. Possibly

I am a rank amateur regarding the case yes but if the killing was not premeditated why the nature of the death? I know people will argue that the only concrete fact is there was a knife wound to the throat and thats that but surely given the crime scene and body there is a strong possibility that Stride was subdued via her neck and then had her front cut on or very near to the ground. Is that much accepted? Id love to know peoples opinion on those simple suggestions?

And IF she was subdued via her neck and the sole objective was to kill why not simply continue to apply force to her neck? To my mind anyway if I lost my temper or flew into a rage I would simply continue any attack in the same fashion in which I had started it eg strangulation as it would fulfill my aim I can't imagine stopping and producing a weapon.

I know people will say there is NO evidence of her being subdued via her neck but surely she didn't have her throat cut standing up? The evidence suggests this did not happen so she must have been subdued somehow?

Again great forum people and apologies for any ignorance on my part

[Fisherman]

S P Jim:

"what do you think with regards my points relating to Strides killer?"

You should know, Jim, that I have spoken up for years about the possibility that Jack was NOT a Ripper victim, whereas I now propose a suspect that offers a good reason geographically to accept Stride as Jackīs after all.

Having positioned myself, letīs look at your post!

"The thing that strikes me about this particular incident is if it was a killing that was not premeditated, for example an argument gone wrong or fit of rage then why was the killer armed with a knife capable of inflicting such a wound and why would they not just stab? I find the idea or someone losing their temper then strangling someone plausible but to then produce a knife and cut their throat is just too much of a stretch for me."

Hm. Knifes were common, so that is no problem. And you will find that history is crammed with people killed with no premeditation but with a cut throat just the same.
Today, a cut throat seems a very iconic fashion to kill, if you will. But back then, it was not uncommon at all. Even suicides were carried out by means of the candidate cutting his/her own throat. the medico Phillips, looking at Stride, told the inquest that he had seen more severe cuts in suicides than the one Stride had suffered!

"How many men in the east end routinely carried a weapon capable of inflicting such a wound?"

Thousands and thousands of them.

"How many men would then lose their temper and rather than stab decide to strangle, assuming thats what happened and in my mind it is, THEN casually produce a knife and cut a throat?"

Canīt say. But I CAN say that Stride did not have any signs of strangulation about her person.

"If it was premeditated, and I think the killing was, then in my mind either

1. It was a killer who killed her simply to satisfy a need to kill/mutilate. The fact there were no mutilations reinforces the interrupted theory in my mind.

2. Someone who she knew wanted to kill Stride for some other reason and decided that arranging to meet her in a decidedly dicey location would be the best way to go about doing it?"

If it was premeditated, then yes - he was either a guy who liked his killing or who wanted Stride dead - or a combo of both. That pretty much fills the cup to the brim.

... but it leaves a NOT premeditated scenario untouched upon.

The best,
Fisherman