The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[Cogidubnus]

You seem to be talking about her murder and conflating it with Schwartz's description of events. I am talking about what Schwartz said he saw. He simply saw her being pushed. She was alive when he left. She wasn't killed where Schwartz saw her so either she went voluntarily into the passage or was was dragged. If dragged, you would think she would try to fight him off. Attempting to loosen the scarf would be done with an open palm. Very tough on the cachous.

c.d.

Hi Cd

I'm not so sure...I think he saw her being whirled around and pushed down...Swanson's report says "The man tried to pull the woman into the street"...so she was already in the entrance way..."but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway"...an important "but" there, because it implies that instead of drawing her out of the yard, he whipped her the remaining few feet into the passage,"and the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly" - I think he had her by the scarf...so not very loudly because the scarf was really tightening around her throat...I think he cut her throat just as she hit the deck...I don't think poor Liz had much time or opportunity to struggle...

In any event, who says she was alive at this point? According to Swanson, not Schwartz...he was away on his toes by then...she didn't go into the passage voluntarily with BS Man, and quite likely didn't come out again...

Note please I've said "I think"...I'll not try to pretend it's otherwise, but it does seem to make better sense of the subsequent timings too (see posts #81, #84 and #130)...I'm fundamentally a lazy reasoner, have no suspect in mind, and if there's a relatively simple sequence of events that seems to work, then that's the course I tend to favour..if we agree to differ, then no spilt milk!

Cheers

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

You want to start a thread about grapes?

Oh God...please don't anyone tell Tom...we'll all end up wading in the fishtank and singing Jerusalem again...

[packers stem]

You want to start a thread about grapes?

Mortimer confirms their existence
I'm good with that .
Doesn't take a genius to work out that the fruit stain that had to be tested to confirm it wasn't blood is likely to be the product of anything other than skins spat out into the handkerchief

[Wickerman]

Mrs Mortimer expressly tells us the couple told her things,.....

Then tell us all what these other things are.

On the other hand she does expressly say,

"...the only man whom I had seen pass through the street..."

and

" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in."

Of course, this has never been an issue.
At no time did Mortimer ever say she saw a couple WALKING up or down the street.
She saw a couple STANDING on the corner.

Nowhere does she say "I saw "a couple whist standing at my door, which is what you keep, unsuccessfully trying to claim.

You know what she said, you just try to dance around it. "There was a couple standing".... is just the same as "I saw a couple standing".... when the interview is given in the first person singular. I'm beginning to think you do not know what that means.

[Wickerman]

Mortimer confirms their existence
I'm good with that .
Doesn't take a genius to work out that the fruit stain that had to be tested to confirm it wasn't blood is likely to be the product of anything other than skins spat out into the handkerchief

No argument here, in fact that is what the newspaper parcel was. Packer will wrap them up in newspaper and PC Smith saw the same man with Stride who bought the grapes.
Though some would have us believe this guy was only delivering printed flyers at 1:00 in the morning - ridiculous idea!

[Joshua Rogan]

No argument here, in fact that is what the newspaper parcel was. Packer will wrap them up in newspaper and PC Smith saw the same man with Stride who bought the grapes.

I don't think so.

PC Smith: "I noticed the man who was talking to her. He had a parcel done up in newspaper in his hand, about 18 inches long and 6 to 8 inches broad."

Whatever the parcel was, it wasn't half a pound of grapes.

[Cogidubnus]

I don't think so.

PC Smith: "I noticed the man who was talking to her. He had a parcel done up in newspaper in his hand, about 18 inches long and 6 to 8 inches broad."

Whatever the parcel was, it wasn't half a pound of grapes.

I don't suppose it was a package of Arbeiter Frant's picked up from the rear of number 40 for subsequent distribution either...or perhaps, as the printer/editor was for some reason or another, on duty there at that time (see inquest testimony of Philip Krantz) it just might've been...actually it could've been anything...

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

"Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the yard with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

The London Evening News, Oct 1st. All I said was that she saw the young couple, and that she talked to them later, I never suggested what they said.

From the same edition, Heschburgs remarks: "Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat. I should say she was from 25 to 28 years of age.'

I point that out because A) note the time he recalls being by the body, and.. B) contrary to my own conclusions, at least one person mistook her for being much younger.

The basic line here is that the stories and timings cannot work as is. Fanny establishes continuity with likely repeated visits to the door before 12:50 and a vigil from then till 1. All the things that are said to have occurred by other witnesses, excluding the young couple seen together, she either missed,... or they didn't happen as described. Some witnesses say they were alerted to the body, some from upstairs, and they were by the dying woman at 12:45. One outside witness inadvertently corroborates that. If Fanny is inside at 12:40 ish she could have missed an arriving Spooner, and/or Eagle. She might not have noticed Lave out by the gates. She did say no-one else was around when she was at the door. Liz couldn't be getting assaulted in front of the gates and also leaning against a wall with a man leaning over her just down the street at the same time. BSM man and Pipeman must have come from somewhere if they existed, Fanny never saw anyone, but where would they have come from if they were there? If Louis is determined that he arrived at 1am, then why didn't Fanny see or hear him at 1am at her door? If Issac K is sent out by Louis alone around 12:45, then how many search parties in total were sent and when? So many questions.

No-one in this investigation is assumed 100% accurate for a factually built case, what time the whistle was blown, what time Louis pulled in, who was sent for help and when, all these could be erroneous stories, intentionally or not. my whole point here is that we know that some witnesses would benefit from a storyline that makes the club look absolutely clean with respect to this discovery and the actions taken. They may have had no knowledge of what did happen, or who did this, they only know its now in their lap and that the police, the ones that already have suspicious eyes on this club, would have some serious questions as to what went on here.

[John G]

Hi Cd

I'm not so sure...I think he saw her being whirled around and pushed down...Swanson's report says "The man tried to pull the woman into the street"...so she was already in the entrance way..."but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway"...an important "but" there, because it implies that instead of drawing her out of the yard, he whipped her the remaining few feet into the passage,"and the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly" - I think he had her by the scarf...so not very loudly because the scarf was really tightening around her throat...I think he cut her throat just as she hit the deck...I don't think poor Liz had much time or opportunity to struggle...

In any event, who says she was alive at this point? According to Swanson, not Schwartz...he was away on his toes by then...she didn't go into the passage voluntarily with BS Man, and quite likely didn't come out again...

Note please I've said "I think"...I'll not try to pretend it's otherwise, but it does seem to make better sense of the subsequent timings too (see posts #81, #84 and #130)...I'm fundamentally a lazy reasoner, have no suspect in mind, and if there's a relatively simple sequence of events that seems to work, then that's the course I tend to favour..if we agree to differ, then no spilt milk!

Cheers

Dave

But Scwartz doesn't say anything about a woman being strangled with a scarf. And he claims he witnessed Stride being thrown onto the footway not hurled into the yard.

[Michael W Richards]

But Scwartz doesn't say anything about a woman being strangled with a scarf. And he claims he witnessed Stride being thrown onto the footway not hurled into the yard.

I don't know if you remember AP Wolf posting here, but once he suggested that she might have cut her throat on a boot scraper inside the gates. Not my own interpretation but interesting nonetheless since this was such a mundane murder in many respects. No more violent or Ripper-like than the murder of Mrs Brown by Mr Brown that same night,... a grabbed scarf, a twist, a knife across the throat,.. and drop.

As to Israel Schwartz, IF he did see what he claims, then BSM is almost certainly a killer. 2 men assaulting her within less than 5 minutes is far fetched and unsupported with any other evidence. Logistically, he would then have to get her into the yard, have a position relative to her of being closer to the side door, she tries to head out the gates, is grabbed from behind by her scarf, pulled off balance backward and has her throat cut by a right handed man.

What is interesting is that the side door is open, the upper windows are open, there are people awake in the cottages just opposite where she is found, one of them is Lave who just went inside, Fanny may or may not be at her door at the time, ...and no-one other than Israel Schwartz claimed to hear or see himself, or Liz on the street, or BSM, or Pipeman. No-one heard a struggle, no-one heard the infamous "Lipski", no-one saw the incontinent escape..and Leon Goldstein walks right by just after and looks into the passageway. Lave is at the gates until around 12:40...no Liz, no Pipeman, no BSM, Eagle arrives at around 12:40,... no BSM, no Liz, no Pipeman. Fanny says she would have seen someone exit the passageway before 1am...so where is the killer after cutting Liz? How come 4 people think that they were by the dying woman 15 minutes before Louis says he arrived?

I know I keep bringing a lot of questions up, but its in an effort to get people to see what this is...an essentially mundane murder only complicated by the conflicting and often contradictory stories. The only take away here that is a given is that Liz Stride was not ripped in any fashion, nor was she positioned in a way that suggests that was going to happen at all.

My goal is to have a Canonical Group constructed in a much more pragmatic way...likes grouped, unlikes removed.

[Wickerman]

I don't think so.

PC Smith: "I noticed the man who was talking to her. He had a parcel done up in newspaper in his hand, about 18 inches long and 6 to 8 inches broad."

Whatever the parcel was, it wasn't half a pound of grapes.

Yes, I'm well aware of that Joshua.

Yet Packer saw Stride with a man at the same time as did PC Smith, at the same location, just opposite the yard. And the man in both cases was carrying something. In Packer's customer's case that is an assumption based on the fact the man bought something, ergo, he was carrying what he bought.
Not etiquette to have the woman carry the half pound of grapes.

PC Smith said the man was carrying a newspaper package, and Packer sold the man something that he would normally wrap in newspaper.
Thats what small time businesses used, it was cheap and readily available - like fish & chips, everyone used newspaper.
It's not like PC Smith actually measured the package, he was guessing. Given the circumstances it seems to me he over estimated the size of the parcel. We know he was guessing, so we shouldn't over value the importance of something we already know to be questionable.

[Wickerman]

...... If Louis is determined that he arrived at 1am, then why didn't Fanny see or hear him at 1am at her door?

Diemschutz made reference to the Bakers clock on the corner of Berner st. (presumably at Commercial Rd. end?), that he passed on the way home.
So, always assuming it was correct, he still arrived at the yard slightly after 1:00am.

[Wickerman]

I don't know if you remember AP Wolf posting here, but once he suggested that she might have cut her throat on a boot scraper inside the gates.

Whoever suggested that has never seen a boot scraper - they are not sharp in any way. She might have received a nasty bruise, thats about it.

[Michael W Richards]

Diemschutz made reference to the Bakers clock on the corner of Berner st. (presumably at Commercial Rd. end?), that he passed on the way home.
So, always assuming it was correct, he still arrived at the yard slightly after 1:00am.

"On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street." That's from the Inquest reported by the Telegraph Oct 2nd. The word "exactly" is then misused by Louis if youre correct. But did he mean what he said, if so, Fannys remarks directly contradict that. As for the boot scraper theory, it does help illustrate that it wouldn't take an extraordinary event to cause Liz's wound. One cut.

[Michael W Richards]

Yes, I'm well aware of that Joshua.

Yet Packer saw Stride with a man at the same time as did PC Smith, at the same location, just opposite the yard. And the man in both cases was carrying something. In Packer's customer's case that is an assumption based on the fact the man bought something, ergo, he was carrying what he bought.
Not etiquette to have the woman carry the half pound of grapes.

PC Smith said the man was carrying a newspaper package, and Packer sold the man something that he would normally wrap in newspaper.
Thats what small time businesses used, it was cheap and readily available - like fish & chips, everyone used newspaper.
It's not like PC Smith actually measured the package, he was guessing. Given the circumstances it seems to me he over estimated the size of the parcel. We know he was guessing, so we shouldn't over value the importance of something we already know to be questionable.

Almost certainly Wess and his Arbeter Fraints. The packages approx. size matches the printed edition of the paper.