The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[Tom_Wescott]

No, you fairly corrected one minor error regarding the clock Schwartz saw. The two primary errors that you harped on about both proved to be wrong. And the thread is still there, so only if people choose to keep reading down will they know they're wrong. Otherwise, it stands as an unfair condemnation of my work. And it's not fair to say there are multiple possibilities with everything. That's a cop out. When one truly knows the material, it becomes clear that not all possibilities are equal. You're probably right to say the interview with the young couple was always on Casebook, but then it's remarkable, is it not, that it went so ignored by everyone but me and apparently still is ignored.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Wickerman, Fanny Mortimer never saw the young couple. She spoke with the young woman after the murder happened and everyone was on the street.

The most common press report, likely sourced through one of the agencies, does not truly read the way you describe it.

Mortimer does not say the girl told her she stood at the corner. What the girl told Mortimer was "they did not hear a sound".

"A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

The observation of the "young man and his sweetheart standing at the corner" is attributed to Mrs Mortimer. Mortimer then told the reporter that the young woman told her they had heard nothing of the incident.

The young woman also spoke to a reporter, "She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises." (Daily News)

Another reporter interviewed the young woman, if it was the same woman. She does not mention standing on the corner.

"From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.
"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate." (Echo)

What is not clear from this account is what time the couple said "good night". So it is not possible to say this couple left Berner st. before the murder.

The above details tell us that Mortimer, along with Brown, both saw a couple standing at the corner of Berner & Fairclough.

[Tom_Wescott]

Wickerman: "A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

That would be midnight. Midnight was then the time it was assumed the woman had been murdered.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[drstrange169]

Timeline No 1 (but not necessarily correct):

Brown sees his couple at the corner of Fairclough, 2:45.

Schwartz and B.S. man are in the street, according to Schwartz.

Brown doesn't notice them ... possible.

Pipeman should be visible to Brown ... he isn't.

Mrs Stride goes up Berner and crosses into Dutfield's Yard unseen by Schwartz ... not possible.

Brown walks home accompanied by shouts and the sound of running feet behind him, yet he hears nothing.



Timeline No 2 (but not necessarily correct):

Brown leaves home at 2:45.

Schwartz and B.S. man enter Berner Street, according to Schwartz at 2:45.

Brown should either be arriving at Berner or entering the shop as the fracas is happening.

He should see Pipeman ahead of him the whole time.

There should be shouts and running and general commotion.


Ergo the times as given by various witnesses to not add up. There is an error on some or all witnesses parts.

[drstrange169]

>>You're probably right to say the interview with the young couple was always on Casebook, but then it's remarkable, is it not, that it went so ignored by everyone but me and apparently still is ignored. <<

Since it also contains important comments by Wess, it certainly has never been ignored by me or I suspect many others. More likely some interpreted it differently.

[drstrange169]

>>What is not clear from this account is what time the couple said "good night".<<

Speaking of people interpreting it differently:-)

The answer to your question, Wickerman, is there in the article.

"From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart."

She explicitly says, as a couple, they were only in the street between 12:00 and 12:30. And since Smith didn't see them presumably they were not there the whole of that time.

[Wickerman]

>>What is not clear from this account is what time the couple said "good night".<<

Speaking of people interpreting it differently:-)

The answer to your question, Wickerman, is there in the article.

"From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart."

She explicitly says, as a couple, they were only in the street between 12:00 and 12:30. And since Smith didn't see them presumably they were not there the whole of that time.

Because this woman makes no mention of standing at the corner of Berner & Fairclough, what reason do we have to claim this was the same couple seen by Mortimer?

If you recall, Morris Eagle also walked with his sweetheart through Berner street at that time. How many couples were in the street between 12:00 - 1:00am that night, two, three?

[Wickerman]

Wickerman: "A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

That would be midnight. Midnight was then the time it was assumed the woman had been murdered.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

"Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual."

Mortimer went in for a while, then came out just after 1:00am., which was when she saw the man with the bag pass by and go round the corner by the Board School. Mortimer doesn't say at what time she saw the couple on the corner.

So, the couple who walked up and down the street could have been a different couple.

[Wickerman]

>>What is not clear from this account is what time the couple said "good night".<<

Speaking of people interpreting it differently:-)

The answer to your question, Wickerman, is there in the article.

"From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart."

If you notice the woman says she passed the murder spot "alone", while walking up to Commercial st. There she met her man and they both went for a walk in Comm. St. and back down Berner St.
Then she says they saw a man pass them in Comm. St.

How could she if she is at the bottom end of Berner st.? so obviously they must have walked back up again to see this man pass towards Aldgate.
So, what time did they say "good night"?

Regardless, there is nothing in this statement to assure us this is the same couple as seen by Mortimer.

She explicitly says, as a couple, they were only in the street between 12:00 and 12:30. And since Smith didn't see them presumably they were not there the whole of that time.

PC Smith didn't see them?

Smith doesn't actually say that.
It seems like in the Times PC Smith saw "very few" people.
Coroner: - Did you see many prostitutes or people hanging about Berner-street?
PC Smith: - No, very few.

So, did he see anyone else in Berner St. or not?

[drstrange169]

>>... what reason do we have to claim this was the same couple seen by Mortimer?<<

Just so we are all on the same page, Mortimer didn't see any couple until after the murder.

" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?" "No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had."

So whatever she said about a couple is purely hearsay.



>>If you recall, Morris Eagle also walked with his sweetheart through Berner street at that time. How many couples were in the street between 12:00 - 1:00am that night, two, three?<<

Considering couples like Spooner were a mere street away, I'd say there could be a lot in the area, but more around 12:00 to 12:30 (closer to closing time) than 12:30 to 1:00.

[drstrange169]

>>So, what time did they say "good night"?<<

Since she claims they were only in Berner Street together between 12:00 and 12:30, what does it matter? According to her statement, they were NOT in the street together between 12:30 and the murder.



>>Regardless, there is nothing in this statement to assure us this is the same couple as seen by Mortimer.<<

Agreed. But since Mortimer's comment was purely hearsay it doesn't matter too much.



>> Smith doesn't actually say that.<<

Fair enough.

[Tom_Wescott]

Goodness, this is pointless. Mortimer never saw a couple. That much is clear. She spoke to the girl afterward. Reporters sought out the girl, who Mortimer obviously identified. The girl gave THAT statement. That statement makes it clear there never was a young couple on the corner of Berner and Fairclough. There was only Stride and Pipe/Overcoat Man. That's my whole point. If you get out of your own heads for a minute and just read the source material, it's all right there. The young couple is a myth from old Ripper books, nothing more. A red herring. Same with a lot of things in this case, like the blunt knife used to kill Stride. Never happened.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

Because this woman makes no mention of standing at the corner of Berner & Fairclough, what reason do we have to claim this was the same couple seen by Mortimer?

If you recall, Morris Eagle also walked with his sweetheart through Berner street at that time. How many couples were in the street between 12:00 - 1:00am that night, two, three?

Wasn't Edward Spooner stood with a woman, at the corner of Fairclough and Christian Street, at the time he was alerted to the murder?

[John G]

Goodness, this is pointless. Mortimer never saw a couple. That much is clear. She spoke to the girl afterward. Reporters sought out the girl, who Mortimer obviously identified. The girl gave THAT statement. That statement makes it clear there never was a young couple on the corner of Berner and Fairclough. There was only Stride and Pipe/Overcoat Man. That's my whole point. If you get out of your own heads for a minute and just read the source material, it's all right there. The young couple is a myth from old Ripper books, nothing more. A red herring. Same with a lot of things in this case, like the blunt knife used to kill Stride. Never happened.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I would agree with you about the knife. This is what Dr Biggs, the forensic pathologist consulted by Trevor Marriott, said in relation to Eddowes murder, although I'm sure his comments about the knife have general application:

"The weapon was probably a 'knife', but there is no guarantee of this (and the size/shape/sharpness/etc. cannot be guessed from the description of the wounds.)" See: Marriott, 2016.

[Wickerman]

>>... what reason do we have to claim this was the same couple seen by Mortimer?<<

Just so we are all on the same page, Mortimer didn't see any couple until after the murder.

" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?" "No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had."

So whatever she said about a couple is purely hearsay.

It seems you are confused about Hearsay. It is not admissible in a criminal trial, but it is admissible in an investigation. This is an investigation.

Secondly, Mortimer said:
"A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

Mortimer did not say she saw anyone "pass down the street", which is consistent with your quote.
Mortimer only saw a couple standing at the corner, not walking or doing anything else. At some point this couple spoke to Mortimer telling her they did not hear a sound.