The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[Abby Normal]

We can’t possibly know why she was holding the Cashous. Maybe it was just her habit? Like people eat mints. I don’t think we can deduce anything from their existence.

bingo HS. figures its you that finally put it most concise. they mean nothing.

[Wickerman]

>>Why can't you provide a quote for that story, and which newspaper it came from?<<

Ah, I'm beginning to understand your difficulties in following this thread.

I, mistakenly apparently, assumed as you've been on the boards a long time that you were familiar the all the evidence available.

My apologies, I now see you are not.

I am one who does appreciate sarcasm, a man after my own heart
But I do insist on one point, make sure you are correct before you make fun.

You did not know about Schwartz's statement to Abberline, November 1 1888,

I never said to you I didn't know about it, I asked you to provide it because I could not remember anyone saying the street was deserted but for one person, which is what you are claiming.
In fact, I thought you had already been made aware of the fact there were "a few" people in the street, as that is what PC Smith had already stated in his testimony.
He was asked by the solicitor if there were any "people hanging about Berner st." to which he replied "very few".
We covered this already, so it now looks like you are contesting what PC Smith said with what Abberline wrote. Yet, Smith was actually there, and Abberline could have only meant 'no other person the word Lipski could have been aimed at', but you choose to take it as no other person in the street, which is clearly wrong.

.....and now you don't know about the Evening News article from Oct 1 1888. Which is odd because you even quoted in your own post #56!

It is odd, because I remember that quote well enough, and much to your surprise, I also remember you wrote "over 100 feet", not "150ft", or "50yds". Yet the actual press report reads, "NOT 50yds". You might not think there is a difference, but everyone else will.

The other press account which mentions a distance is the interview with Mortimer where we read this couple were stood "20yds" away on the corner.
It might interest you to know that using the Goads Plan, the distance from where the body was found to the corner by the Board School is 60 feet = 20 yds.
So, if you are going to pick a point, try brush up on your math before doing so, if you don't mind, it would save us both some time, and you some embarrassment.

They said they hadn't "heard any unusual sounds".

Right, no sound of a scuffle, or a woman exclaiming "no,no" in a low voice. They did hear the alarm, meaning men running about shouting for a policeman.
Couples are not interested in who else is coming and going in the street, they are only concerned with each other.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think we can deduce certain things, Herlock. I eat a lot of mints, but the packets they come in spend most of their time out of sight. If there's a packet in my hand, it either means (a) I'm just about to take a mint out; (b) I've just taken a mint and I'm returning the rest to my pocket; or (c) I'm about to offer a mint to someone nearby.

And so saying (for real!), Sam Flynn pops another Extra Strong Mint in his gob

I consider option (c) to be a work of fiction Sam

[Sam Flynn]

I consider option (c) to be a work of fiction Sam

Come to think of it, I am a selfish bastard when it comes to mints.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Come to think of it, I am a selfish bastard when it comes to mints.

can you still buy cachous?

[Sam Flynn]

can you still buy cachous?

You can get these on Amazon:

[Herlock Sholmes]

You can get these on Amazon:

I’ll let you buy them and you can tell us all what they’re like. Call it doing a service to Ripperology or taking one for the team.

[Wickerman]

>>I was looking at more of this "evidence" you speak about.
I know published estimates of Stride's age were stated to be 35-40, another opinion said 30. However, interestingly Abraham Heshburg, gave a different opinion..... "I should say she was from 25 to 28 years of age."
I thought you might find this interesting given that James Brown does not say how old he thought the female looked who he saw on the street corner.<<

Actually, on the surface that sounds a reasonable argument.

Not, however when you get to the nitty gritty.

All the above you mention might be described today as a "young woman".

This was a trained journalist decribing a "young girl". A VERY different thing.

A trained journalist now?, I wasn't aware there were any Journalist colleges, no university degree's in journalism in the 19th century.
You wouldn't be laying the icing on a bit thick would you?

So what age do you want this "young girl" to be to suit your argument?
We're not going to get anywhere with this until you pick an age - ten years old perhaps, fifteen? - stood on a corner, at midnight, with a man 5ft 7inch tall?
Given the social standards of Victorian England, do you really think a "young girl" would be out in public after midnight with a man?
Nah, neither do I. So, lets get back to reality.

[Wickerman]

...... Many people are found dead still clutching objects in the hand, even victims of horrific car accidents and violent murders.

Even things already on the ground. Once the contractions begin as she is dying, her fingers curl up clenching what ever is near them.
This packet was not in the palm of her hand, it was trapped between her thumb & forefinger. As this was her left hand, and the back of her hand was against the ground- palm up. Then the packet could have been right between her thumb & finger on the ground already.

[Wickerman]

I’ll let you buy them and you can tell us all what they’re like. Call it doing a service to Ripperology or taking one for the team.

When I was a kid, we had 'Imps", little black square pills, they were liquorice flavored and hot, much the same as cachous.

[Wickerman]

I too believe she was meeting someone that night, possibly already had, (and, speculatively, perhaps he'd quickly popped into the club to do some business, leaving her outside)...perhaps she'd just fetched out the cachous, intending to take one to freshen up, when her assailant approached her, and she had no time to replace them as she was blitzed...

Dave

Yes Dave, "possibly already had" met someone.
Like the parcel-man seen with her by PC Smith at 12:35ish.
Standing in the shadows, as BS-man passed by....?

[c.d.]

Yes, people do manage to clutch things in death. That is a given. But the key to the cachous is not how she was able to hold them in death but how they managed to survive her being thrown to the ground, picking herself up off of the ground and presumably attempting to fight off the B.S. man. That should be the focus of the cachous. And if you think the odds are very low that they could have survived all of that then the most reasonable conclusion is that she did not have them in her hand when she encountered the B.S. man but took them out after he left and before her real killer came along.

The above is the key to the cachous not how she managed to hold on to them in death.

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Yes Dave, "possibly already had" met someone.
Like the parcel-man seen with her by PC Smith at 12:35ish.
Standing in the shadows, as BS-man passed by....?

Quite possibly Jon...

[Cogidubnus]

Yes, people do manage to clutch things in death. That is a given. But the key to the cachous is not how she was able to hold them in death but how they managed to survive her being thrown to the ground, picking herself up off of the ground and presumably attempting to fight off the B.S. man. That should be the focus of the cachous. And if you think the odds are very low that they could have survived all of that then the most reasonable conclusion is that she did not have them in her hand when she encountered the B.S. man but took them out after he left and before her real killer came along.

The above is the key to the cachous not how she managed to hold on to them in death.

c.d.

Well either BSM was the killer and the cachous stayed in her grasp, or someone else was the killer and the cachous stayed in her grasp...so what does that prove?

Cheers

Dave

[Wickerman]

This is a hand in cadaveric spasm, the victim grasped something not in his hands.
The grass was on the ground, like those cachous.....