How about this quick theory!

[Tom_Wescott]

Any scenario that does not account for the placid looking dress and unspilled cachous falls short.

Cheers.

These are not difficult to account for, in my opinion. I have done so in the past, but not everyone likes the idea. The 'placid' dress is explained as there was never a struggle. Schwartz merely describes her falling to the pavement. She obviously stood up and shook off after this. And she was not holding the cachous when BS Man pushed her down (or she fell).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Hi Abby,

I think the cachous are problematic and then some. Not only did they have to survive Liz being dragged but they had to survive the initial attack as well.

The cachous represent a smoking gun that something is amiss about Schwartz's story.

Jon

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello CD. Don't be surprised, but I entirely agree with you.

Any scenario that does not account for the placid looking dress and unspilled cachous falls short.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.
My thought would be he continued the attack by dragging her into the yard, perhaps with his hand over her mouth and finished her off. Then took off thinking he did not have time for mutilations, due to IS (and/or LD). The cachous is problematic i admit, but many a murder victim has been found still clutching something.

Hi Abby,

I think the cachous are problematic and then some. Not only did they have to survive Liz being dragged but they had to survive the initial attack as well. It seems to me that if Liz made any attempt to free herself from the clutches of the BS man that they would have fallen out. Additionally, her clothes did not seem to be disheveled or torn other than her scarf which could have come from the knife cut. To me, the being dragged scenario has problems associated with it.

The BS man coming back minutes later is also problematic in that he could have run smack into a PC fetched by Scwartz and/or the Pipe Man.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I think chances are she would be leaving quickly to get away from him and/or find help from a PC.

Stride was not a member of the Stepford Wives, she was among the abused women of society, being pushed & pulled, kicked & beaten was their lot in life.

This was their world, drifting from one abuser to another, all for the price of a bed.

Jon

[Wickerman]

2) Back to Stride...

BS may or may not have gone on to kill Stride,

Might depend on whether he even carried a knife ...

Judge: Did the accused have a knife on his person?

Prosecutor: We never thought to ask... but we just don't like him!

[Wickerman]

The STRIDE murder, because he knew peeps like you would come around and stare at the trees for want of a forest.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Two different killers on the same night.
Some will not entertain the idea due to convictions that coincidences like that do not happen.
Yet, as part of your theory you choose to implant the very same notion in your killer's mind that you are rejecting when suggested by me.
Is this too subtle for you?

You will not accept that there could be two killers out at the same time, yet you choose to credit your killer with thinking that he needs to make sure He gets the credit for the 1st kill, in case people think there's a 2nd killer on the loose.
Can't you see the irony in your argument?

IF, as you say, it is too implausible then why the need for your killer to claim credit? - comprende Seņor?

Regards, Jon

[Malcolm X]

you need to be more accurate with your wording please, because continuing his attack; means he never stopped.

I was accurate-and thats what I meant. he continued the attack by dragging her into the yard.

ok fair enough, then i have to draw you closer to my comments, that these other guys have only just left and could return, plus others could come out to see what all the fuss is about....

now are you still happy realising this ? well; only you can answer this

[Abby Normal]

i doubt it

Schwartz and Pipeman are still cose by, he would've waited before killing her... you need to be more accurate with your wording please, because continuing his attack; means he never stopped.

he has to wait for a few reasons:-
1.... did all this noise alert someone else, either inside the club or in a house close by
2..... are those 2 blokes going to look for help, or are they going to team up and come back after him.

it's therefore wise to walk off too, let everything calm down and return in 10 mins .... i think!

you need to be more accurate with your wording please, because continuing his attack; means he never stopped.

I was accurate-and thats what I meant. he continued the attack by dragging her into the yard.

[Malcolm X]

Hi c.d.
My thought would be he continued the attack by dragging her into the yard, perhaps with his hand over her mouth and finished her off. Then took off thinking he did not have time for mutilations, due to IS (and/or LD). The cachous is problematic i admit, but many a murder victim has been found still clutching something.

i doubt it

Schwartz and Pipeman are still cose by, he would've waited before killing her... you need to be more accurate with your wording please, because continuing his attack; means he never stopped.

he has to wait for a few reasons:-
1.... did all this noise alert someone else, either inside the club or in a house close by
2..... are those 2 blokes going to look for help, or are they going to team up and come back after him.

it's therefore wise to walk off too, let everything calm down and return in 10 mins .... i think!

[Abby Normal]

Hi Ben and Abby,

I doubt highly that this was the first time that Liz got hassled on the street. This "assault" or "vicious attack" consisted solely of being thrown to the ground. That is it and it could have been unintentional. And apparently it was not hard enough to scatter her cachous.

If anybody needed to worry about someone going to get help from the nearest P.C. it was the BS man. Surely it must have crossed his mind that Schwartz and/or the Pipe Man could be high tailing it to find one. At this point, he is guilty of a crime that would probably put him in jail for a few days but you have him remaining on the scene threatening Liz with a knife to get her to go back into the yard. Not very smart on his part.

As for screams, Mrs. Diemschutz and was it Morris Eagle? went out of their way to testify that they felt certain they would have heard something over the singing but they did not. No argument. No screams. Liz not roughed up and holding cachous. All inconsistent with any kind of vicious attack.

c.d.

Hi c.d.
My thought would be he continued the attack by dragging her into the yard, perhaps with his hand over her mouth and finished her off. Then took off thinking he did not have time for mutilations, due to IS (and/or LD). The cachous is problematic i admit, but many a murder victim has been found still clutching something.

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Kensei. Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[kensei]

Hello Kensei.

"Liz was an abused woman who had recently broken away from her abuser."

Really? Can you direct me to the relevant information regarding this?

Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

Well this is going to sound insufficient, but it's always been my strong impression that Kidney was violent to Liz on and off and that it finally led to her leaving him and I thought it was common knowledge so I know I have to have read it somewhere. It's six in the morning as I sit beside my bookshelf here and I just grabbed Paul Begg's "Jack the Ripper- The Facts" and looked up the following:

Page 140- "Kidney seems to have strongly objected to Stride's behavior, her drinking and prostitution, and he probably became violent on occasions. On 6 April 1887 Stride accused him of assault- Stride didn't turn up at the Thames Magistrates' Court to carry through the prosecution."

Page 142- "On 25 September Elizabeth Stride and Michael Kidney parted company for the last time. He claimed they had been on good terms, but a woman named Catherine Lane claimed that Stride had told her that she'd left Kidney following a row."

I know I've seen more on it than just those quotes, but read between the lines and consider how most domestic violence goes unreported and there was likely a lot more going on there. I hope that's enough as I am just about to go to bed.

[lynn cates]

abuse

Hello Kensei.

"Liz was an abused woman who had recently broken away from her abuser."

Really? Can you direct me to the relevant information regarding this?

Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[kensei]

Just dropping in here briefly, taking note of discussion of Liz on this the 123rd anniversary of her death. (I just started a thread about the anniversary of the Double Event under "General Victim Discussion" if anyone would like to contribute.) I have a thought about how no one but Schwartz heard her scream. Schwartz said she gave three short screams when she was thrown to the ground, but not a sustained and terrified "Oh my god I'm about to be brutally murdered" kind of scream. Unfortunately, Liz was an abused woman who had recently broken away from her abuser. Kudos to her for that, but she was a victim who was used to being knocked around. When Broadshoulders (whether he was JTR or not) attacked her, her mind might well have reacted, "Here we go again, I guess this is my lot in life" with no idea that a knife was soon to appear and her very life was in danger. So no shrill gutteral scream, just the small immediate one she'd grown used to issuing whenever Kidney had at her. Just a thought.