How about this quick theory!

[Malcolm X]

Exactly, Abby.

It is not as though anyone has ruled out the possibility that somebody arrived after BS, but the overwhelmingly probable explanation is that Stride was murdered by the BS man. All murders are preceded by an assault of some description, and here we have evidence of a pre-murder assault, so why resist the conclusion that they were connected? And the idea that Stride would remain rooted to the spot afterwards and immediately convert into relaxed mode for a second, secretly murderous man, is deeply implausible, as you note.

All the best,
Ben

as mentioned, the only reason for her staying there after the attack is she was waiting for someone inside, this is backed up by, ``not tonight love, some other time maybe``

many street attacks on these police reality tv shows, feature attackers returning later on, either to shoot a night club bouncer, stab him, or simply to wander away from a policeman when told to do so, only to return 5 mins later swearing like crazy, they are then arrested.

this last scenario is very common on TV, i've witnessed this many times in my youth as well, you'll get some idiot swearing at you in a Chippy whilst you're out late at night boozing with your friends, he'll leave, but either return later on, or wait for you up the road.

most attacks outside pubs, are because there was a row earlier on inside, so combine booze with agression, and you get a very strong revenge element too, it is very unwise to have a row with a drunk because he just wont go away, he wants to beat you up and this also means that he might return later on.

this is actually very important.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Ben and Abby,

.
As for screams, Mrs. Diemschutz and was it Morris Eagle? went out of their way to testify that they felt certain they would have heard something over the singing but they did not. No argument. No screams. Liz not roughed up and holding cachous. All inconsistent with any kind of vicious attack.c.d.

no not at all, it's consistent with a highly efficient sudden attack, there is a difference, you're refering more to a clumsy attack, where it takes time to overpower the victim, leaving her time to scream !

other witnesses heard nothing, obviously they didn't, but she was still murdered there so this means nothing.

finally, other than Schwartz, nobody heard Liz getting attacked 10 mins earlier either, so yet again, so much for these so called witnesses.... they're flipping useless.

thus, she could've screamed blue murder and nobody would've heard anything

but it does point to something :- i very much doubt the attacker was blind drunk !!!!!

[Tom_Wescott]

I do feel people are being too dogmatic when they say BS isn't Jack-like (whatever that means - who knows what he was like when there were no clear witnesses to his initial approach in the cases of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly?)

Hi Caz. They are indeed being too dogmatic, particularly in light of the 'auditory' witness in Hanbury Street, Albert Cadosch (who was a young man in his 20's and NOT the old man we imagine). He heard a couple talking, someone say 'no' and then a thud against the fence. Schwartz saw a couple talking, Stride said 'no' and hit the pavement.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

If the BS man was Jack, up until this point he has remained unknown. Now he is seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. If he left the scene at this point, he is only guilty of throwing a prostitute to the ground. Yet for some reason he has the bravado to carry out the murder anyway. Somehow the bravado deserts him before he can mutilate her. That seems rather inconsistent.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Ben
Yup. And what are the chances that after a man assualts a women in the street that the very next series of events would be that he would leave and she would stay, non-plussed?
I think chances are she would be leaving quickly to get away from him and/or find help from a PC.

Hi Ben and Abby,

I doubt highly that this was the first time that Liz got hassled on the street. This "assault" or "vicious attack" consisted solely of being thrown to the ground. That is it and it could have been unintentional. And apparently it was not hard enough to scatter her cachous.

If anybody needed to worry about someone going to get help from the nearest P.C. it was the BS man. Surely it must have crossed his mind that Schwartz and/or the Pipe Man could be high tailing it to find one. At this point, he is guilty of a crime that would probably put him in jail for a few days but you have him remaining on the scene threatening Liz with a knife to get her to go back into the yard. Not very smart on his part.

As for screams, Mrs. Diemschutz and was it Morris Eagle? went out of their way to testify that they felt certain they would have heard something over the singing but they did not. No argument. No screams. Liz not roughed up and holding cachous. All inconsistent with any kind of vicious attack.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Jason.

"So she went for a pee while walking with a gentleman friend?"

No, for then her bladder would have been empty. I am suggesting that she was under pressure and so "plying a trade" would have been out of the question.

Cheers.
LC

Only if she was drinking out of a bottle at the time.

c.d.

[mariab]

I do feel people are being too dogmatic when they say BS isn't Jack-like (whatever that means - who knows what he was like when there were no clear witnesses to his initial approach in the cases of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly?)

I too agree with Caz and Lynn here.

What if Jack took advantage in each case of a situation where a victim appeared to be in some trouble, or in need of some assistance? Nichols looking for doss money - for a fourth time; Chapman tired and sick; Eddowes in need of a pee, some money to take home and possibly more drink; and Kelly in need of sixpence towards her next meal, drink or landlord demand?

Yes, this too makes sense.

[Abby Normal]

Exactly, Abby.

It is not as though anyone has ruled out the possibility that somebody arrived after BS, but the overwhelmingly probable explanation is that Stride was murdered by the BS man. All murders are preceded by an assault of some description, and here we have evidence of a pre-murder assault, so why resist the conclusion that they were connected? And the idea that Stride would remain rooted to the spot afterwards and immediately convert into relaxed mode for a second, secretly murderous man, is deeply implausible, as you note.

All the best,
Ben

Hi Ben
Yup. And what are the chances that after a man assualts a women in the street that the very next series of events would be that he would leave and she would stay, non-plussed?
I think chances are she would be leaving quickly to get away from him and/or find help from a PC.

[Ben]

so if a women is found murdered minutes later after a credible witness sees her being attacked then it is clearly obvious that the most likely candidate for her murderer is the suspect that was seen assaulting her.

Exactly, Abby.

It is not as though anyone has ruled out the possibility that somebody arrived after BS, but the overwhelmingly probable explanation is that Stride was murdered by the BS man. All murders are preceded by an assault of some description, and here we have evidence of a pre-murder assault, so why resist the conclusion that they were connected? And the idea that Stride would remain rooted to the spot afterwards and immediately convert into relaxed mode for a second, secretly murderous man, is deeply implausible, as you note.

All the best,
Ben

[lynn cates]

questions, questions

Hello Malcolm.

"It means that this isn't the way JTR would normally behave"

Which brings up the question, "How would JTR normally behave?"

Of course, this, in turn, would lead directly to my personal favourite: "How do we KNOW that there was a JTR?"

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. Yes, I HATE theory adjustments. It's almost enough to make a man give up theorising--a woman, too.

Cheers.
LC

oh i have a theory for him too

but right now i'm in H mode, H mode seems more realistic anyway,
Chapman looks seriously guilty, but he doesn't fit the crimes at all.

As a guess i would say that BS was semi-drunk only and starting to recover before killing Eddowes..... The sort of drunk when a friend sais, ``you're going red in the face and starting to talk a load of rubbish ``...... ha ha! you know, it's just starting to hit you

[Malcolm X]

Hello Caz.

"I do feel people are being too dogmatic when they say BS isn't Jack-like (whatever that means . . . .)"

Completely agree. Not sure what that means either.

Cheers.
LC

It means that this isn't the way JTR would normally behave, i agree, but this may be the exception, especially if JTR had drunk too much by mistake.

Whitechapel was full of boozers, most people back then drank to some degree, especially a young working class bloke.

there is also no evidence to say how drunk he was, if even he was, ``he looked like he was staggering``, that's not enough, but it's worth mentioning that Blotchy face looked drunk too !!!!

BS saw Schwartz as soon as he turned around, so my guess is that he wasn't too drunk, more like getting aggressive after say drinking 4 pints or so,
but definitely not blind drunk like those young nighclub idiots on ``police camera action``
.

[lynn cates]

need an adjustment?

Hello Malcolm. Yes, I HATE theory adjustments. It's almost enough to make a man give up theorising--a woman, too.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm.

"he's not the stopping type, only a switch of M.O"

Are you thinking that, perhaps, he became a poisoner?

Cheers.
LC

ha ha no
because to put G.Chapman in the frame, i'd need to adjust my theory to suit him, my theory here is based on a joe average East Ender, someone like GH, BLOTCHY FACE or BS

[lynn cates]

BS

Hello Caz.

"I do feel people are being too dogmatic when they say BS isn't Jack-like (whatever that means . . . .)"

Completely agree. Not sure what that means either.

Cheers.
LC