How about this quick theory!

[lynn cates]

job description

Hello CD.

"Liz was a veteran of the streets and the streets that she worked were far from pleasant. They were frequented by rough, lower class men who more often than not were drunk when they availed themselves of her services. It was not a profession for the faint of heart."

Although I'm sure you know my position vis-a-vis Liz and her purported prostitution, let's say for a moment that Liz, being "turned out" by Michael Kidney, really IS forced onto the streets after half a week to earn a living.

Yet, that is a long way from portraying this person, long since in a relationship with Michael, as a career prostitute.

Let's not get carried away and mistake casual prostitution with modern day "professionalism."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

plans

Hello Malcolm.

"now did Liz say something like ``go away`` or say something far worst, we'll never know, but doing so plus screwing up his plans, is almost guaranteeing her fate."

Hmm. What were his plans? If the Schwartz story is to be believed, it looks like just a random encounter.

Which, by the way, is another good reason for me to think that Israel's story (or whomever devised it) is more BS than just the man.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

If the police thought that the incident witnessed by Schwartz might have been just another row, I suspect Swanson had good reason for mentioning this. His report was likely influenced by the views of Abberline, who eventually stepped in and clarified the controversy over the use of the word 'Lipski' and was no stranger to the activities in the East End.

They were well aware of what went on at the hour that the pub crawlers were making their way home and the prostitutes were out to take advantage of a bloke looking for a nightcap. This was the busiest time for the police in any city... and still is.

[Malcolm X]

.


I'm not convinced the woman in that couple was Stride. This was at 12:45 am, yet PC Smith had already seen Stride with the 'Morning-coat' man about 12:35 am.
She had been seen with a 'Morning-coat' man for almost 2 hours prior to her death, "just before 11", to about 12:35. I have to wonder just who he was, or, if they were different men, why she was seen with three men who all looked very similar.



A particular truth that several others would do well to observe!

Regards, Jon S.

well maybe you're right, maybe she didn't know the time, but somebody still said 12.50 to 1am, ``just wait for me outside``.... one cant tell i'm afraid, this technicality changes little, because it still looks like she's waiting for someone..... maybe she was waiting there to meet someone, that didn't know that she was there...... she was maybe hoping to meet someone that she fancied.

bloody hell, maybe even Diemschultz !!! you never know

she was maybe seen earlier on talking to a few men..... maybe one of these guys was JTR , who knows, because she was bound to meet a few men anyway; so there you go and maybe one of these was just a bloke she knew, maybe she was just Gossiping etc

if JTR was targeting Dutfields, chalk in pocket, he was probably hanging around hoping to kill anyone who was within 150 ft of the place, because this allows him to do an Eddowes, if so, HE DEFINITELY saw Liz Stride either walking into Dutfields earlier, or occassionally strolling out of the yard only to pop back in.

he maybe thought ``damn it, she's trying to get hold of a client from inside that dump, i wish she'd wait up the road, i'm going to have to go and get her, i dont like this , this woman is no good, but i see nobody else``

JTR maybe targeted Dutfields by not waiting in the shadows, but simply by strolling around the block a few times, dont forget that he's looking for any victim that's close by and there might always be somebody around the next corner.

[Ben]

Your bewildered astonishment comes from the fact that you absolutely insist on seeing the BS man's actions as an attack. You are interpreting the first event in light of the second and that leads to your inevitable conclusion.

Yes, CD, I am, because 9 times out of 10, an attack which precedes a murder committed a few minutes later is connected to that murder inasmuch as they are both committed by the same offender. It would be extremely unusual if they were not. The scene witnessed by Schwartz would be classified by the dictionary as an "attack", which is precisely what it was - irrefutably so. If you witness a tiger pawing at a man, and then learn that the man in question was found dead a few minutes later with large teeth marks all over him, the overwhelmingly obvious conclusion is that the tiger was responsible, and not some other, separate large beast that arrived on the scene afterwards, unobserved by anyone.

I think you exaggerate the risks associated with prostitution. Yes, it was a high risk occupation, but it was not as though Stride could realistically expect to be pulled around and thrown to the floor on an average night. What happened to her at the hands of Blotchy was still a deeply perturbing experience for any defenseless woman. Many of the men who used her services would have been drunk, but not "more often than not".

All the best,
Ben

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm.

"I'm convinced that she was waiting for someone inside to come out"

So am I.

"not tonight, some other time maybe"

Are we certain that it was Liz who said this?

Cheers.
LC

no we're not and i dont think that we're certain about anything, but i think that we have to go with what feels about right.

but the two tend to make sense, i.e BS looks like he's pulling her out of the yard and it looks like she's just said, ``no not tonight and i mean it, go away``.

he for some reason does not want to go into the yard with her, this maybe because this is totally the wrong place to kill/mutilate her..... or as i've said before, he's very drunk, more so than i believe he is.

now did Liz say something like ``go away`` or say something far worst, we'll never know, but doing so plus screwing up his plans, is almost guaranteeing her fate.

it's very interesting isn't it. but we could all be totally wrong, the trouble with JTR is that it is very easy to believe that your fav suspect is him, and sometimes this excludes all other possibilites.

[Wickerman]

uum i see it slightly differently.

i dont think she was holding them when BS grabbed her, but got them out thinking that the guy upstairs would be about to come out... in anticipation.

Didn't most of the members exit the Club shortly after 11:00pm?, this was given as the reason Packer thought the pub had closed.
Stride did not have a watch, so she might not have known what the time was to meet someone. Those who stayed on inside the Club were just having an inpromtu after-hours sing-song.
I'm a little doubtful that she could have arranged to meet someone at a given time if she had no means of knowing what the time was.

please dont forget ``not tonight, some other time maybe``, she was therefore maybe waiting for someone special and not on the game that night

I'm not convinced the woman in that couple was Stride. This was at 12:45 am, yet PC Smith had already seen Stride with the 'Morning-coat' man about 12:35 am.
She had been seen with a 'Morning-coat' man for almost 2 hours prior to her death, "just before 11", to about 12:35. I have to wonder just who he was, or, if they were different men, why she was seen with three men who all looked very similar.

maybe ! because as a JTR fan, you always have to say maybe !

A particular truth that several others would do well to observe!

Regards, Jon S.

[c.d.]

Addendum to my above post, I'm still astonished that anyone can give any credence whatsoever to the idea that Stride entered into a state of instant cachous-chewing relaxation after the (assumed but improbable) departure of BS man. She had just been thrown to the ground and dragged about. The idea that she'd remain in that spot thereafter, let alone in pursuit of a client, is disastrously implausible. I'd be fascinated to know how the presence of cachous in her hand is remotely indicative of a killer client with whom she felt inexplicably relaxed.

And again, two attackers at the same spot, on the same person, within minutes of each other - no, probably not. It's another of those infernal "coincidences" that people continue to invest in to my bewildered astonishment.

Hello Ben,

It's nice to see that you are willing to keep an open mind and consider all possibilities rather than be locked into a particular point of view. (See smiley face above).

Liz was a veteran of the streets and the streets that she worked were far from pleasant. They were frequented by rough, lower class men who more often than not were drunk when they availed themselves of her services. It was not a profession for the faint of heart. If she ran at the first drop of rain, she would be a pretty piss poor prostitute and one who most likely would have starved to death. I just can't see her being chased away by an incident that falls into the heading of business as usual.

Your bewildered astonishment comes from the fact that you absolutely insist on seeing the BS man's actions as an attack. You are interpreting the first event in light of the second and that leads to your inevitable conclusion. But if you see these as separate events, that conclusion is not so inevitable.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

2 points

Hello Malcolm.

"I'm convinced that she was waiting for someone inside to come out"

So am I.

"not tonight, some other time maybe"

Are we certain that it was Liz who said this?

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

That is more along the lines of what I was alluding to, that the time (12:45) Schwartz gave was a little too late, and the often ignored cachous still in her grasp (at 12:55?) is an indication that she had been approached by someone else and saw him as a client.
So, within minutes of BS-man staggering away she was being consoled by someone else, she anticipated him as a client and reached for her cachous....
Or something along those lines.

We seem to be reasonably certain she did not have them in her hand while being ruffed up by BS, so we need to pursue the reason 'why' she 'did' have them in her hand at the time she was murdered.
Solution, there was a third person involved, someone just arrived on the scene - and this was her killer.

Regards, Jon S.

uum i see it slightly differently.

i dont think she was holding them when BS grabbed her, but got them out thinking that the guy upstairs would be about to come out... in anticipation.

please dont forget ``not tonight, some other time maybe``, she was therefore maybe waiting for someone special and not on the game that night

maybe she agreed to meet someone there at about 12.50, but maybe he forgot the time, or got carried away talking to someone inside about politics....etc etc.

i'm convinced that she was waiting for someone inside to come out, whilst doing so, JTR was around the corner thinking, ``that bloody woman has spoilt my plans``

we have no idea what he was thinking, but if he returned after his plans for the chalk had failed, that he had dreamt up at home, then he would have been angry.

it was not her saying no, because he would've heard this many times, it's her screwing up his evening ! he was looking forward to reading the newspapers the next day, with the chalk on the gates of Dutfields, a piece of bloody dress underneath and a gutted woman up the road!

maybe ! because as a JTR fan, you always have to say maybe !

[Malcolm X]

Schwartz killed Stride. As he was walking away from the scene, BS Man saw her on the ground and pointed at Schwartz and yelled, accusing him of murder. A man lighting his pipe nearby looked up, saw BS Man near a prostrate woman and pointed at Schwartz. Pipeman chases after the murderer, but doesn't catch him. Pipeman doesn't return to the scene, not wanting to get mixed up. BS Man realizes his precarious position standing over a murdered woman. Maybe he has a record. He leaves. They both consider talking to the police the next day, but the story in the Star scares them away. They realize the murderer was smart. He created a story in which the roles were reversed, and one man was even holding a knife. Best just to lie low.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott


P.S. If none of the other murders had happened, this is precisely what commentators then and now would have been saying. Not all of them, but an awful lot.

oh God no, dont tell me that this is your JTR suspect, if i was you i'd drop this right now

you've been studying JTR for years TOM, this is not a good suspect to pick, you can definitely do better than this....

BLOODY HELL, at least Pipeman looks a bit like D'Onston !!!!!

[Malcolm X]

Addendum to my above post, I'm still astonished that anyone can give any credence whatsoever to the idea that Stride entered into a state of instant cachous-chewing relaxation after the (assumed but improbable) departure of BS man. She had just been thrown to the ground and dragged about. The idea that she'd remain in that spot thereafter, let alone in pursuit of a client, is disastrously implausible. I'd be fascinated to know how the presence of cachous in her hand is remotely indicative of a killer client with whom she felt inexplicably relaxed.

And again, two attackers at the same spot, on the same person, within minutes of each other - no, probably not. It's another of those infernal "coincidences" that people continue to invest in to my bewildered astonishment.

we have no proof that she was thrown to the ground and dragged about, be careful of this, because BS only needs to tug her arm too quickly in pure frustration only, to cause her to yelp and fall over.

this means little but :- in the dark, a heavy coat will make you appear ``broadshouldered``

[Wickerman]

I wondered how long it would be before someone introduced an "F M" into the case again!

[The Grave Maurice]

Schwartz killed Stride. I like that. The circumstances surrounding Stride's murder have caused more arguments among us than all of the other WMs put together and I'd be happy to see her taken out of the equation.

Unfortunately, I've been working on my own theory (soon to be published) that centres on the fact that Fanny Mortimer was the culprit. She saw BS Man manhandling Liz and, as soon as he scarpered, Fanny slipped down the street and did Liz in because Liz had been chatting up Fanny's old man. That's what happened. I'm sure. And I don't want to hear any more of this Schwartz nonsense.

[Tom_Wescott]

Schwartz killed Stride

Schwartz killed Stride. As he was walking away from the scene, BS Man saw her on the ground and pointed at Schwartz and yelled, accusing him of murder. A man lighting his pipe nearby looked up, saw BS Man near a prostrate woman and pointed at Schwartz. Pipeman chases after the murderer, but doesn't catch him. Pipeman doesn't return to the scene, not wanting to get mixed up. BS Man realizes his precarious position standing over a murdered woman. Maybe he has a record. He leaves. They both consider talking to the police the next day, but the story in the Star scares them away. They realize the murderer was smart. He created a story in which the roles were reversed, and one man was even holding a knife. Best just to lie low.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. If none of the other murders had happened, this is precisely what commentators then and now would have been saying. Not all of them, but an awful lot.