How about this quick theory!

[Wickerman]

In a lynching we can always assume BS carried a weapon, regardless that we are told Knifeman actually did, we'll just shift the blame to someone else.
Since when does carrying a weapon matter in a knife attack?


Regards, Jon S.

[Ben]

Addendum to my above post, I'm still astonished that anyone can give any credence whatsoever to the idea that Stride entered into a state of instant cachous-chewing relaxation after the (assumed but improbable) departure of BS man. She had just been thrown to the ground and dragged about. The idea that she'd remain in that spot thereafter, let alone in pursuit of a client, is disastrously implausible. I'd be fascinated to know how the presence of cachous in her hand is remotely indicative of a killer client with whom she felt inexplicably relaxed.

And again, two attackers at the same spot, on the same person, within minutes of each other - no, probably not. It's another of those infernal "coincidences" that people continue to invest in to my bewildered astonishment.

[Wickerman]

.. The Cachous might not have been in her hand at the time, only taken out after BS walked off,

That is more along the lines of what I was alluding to, that the time (12:45) Schwartz gave was a little too late, and the often ignored cachous still in her grasp (at 12:55?) is an indication that she had been approached by someone else and saw him as a client.
So, within minutes of BS-man staggering away she was being consoled by someone else, she anticipated him as a client and reached for her cachous....
Or something along those lines.

We seem to be reasonably certain she did not have them in her hand while being ruffed up by BS, so we need to pursue the reason 'why' she 'did' have them in her hand at the time she was murdered.
Solution, there was a third person involved, someone just arrived on the scene - and this was her killer.

Regards, Jon S.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

You do mention their value which is what a penny or two? Why would she attempt to hold on to them as though they were a wedding ring?

It would be the equivalent of you or I holding a banknote - valuable enough to retain in spite of the necessity to fend off an attacker, and small enough to render pointless the act of relinquishing it. Whatever the case, the presence of cachous in Stride's hand speaks considerably more in favour of the scenario witnessed by Schwartz than it does the concept of a sudden, unexpected attack.

It seems that the first screams were more from surprise than fear.

People tend not to adjust their screaming volume to the perceived severity of the situation. She had every reason to be both surprised and fearful at the man's nefarious advances, especially with knowledge of a serial killer on the prowl in the nearby district. A better explanation is that she simply didn't scream particularly loudly. Alternatively, and pursuant to my earlier suggestion, BS may have produced a knife the moment he realised that the standard approach of pretending to be a client wasn't about to gain her compliance in this case. This could have deterred her from screaming, especially if accompanied by "assurances" that he only wanted to rob her, have sex for free etc.

If someone is dragged and fighting for their life, I think it would be quite apparent by the state of their clothes

But if the scene played out in the manner outlined above, she wouldn't have been dragged "fighting for (her) life". Her clothing was very unlikely to show signs of being "disheveled" after the attack witnessed by Schwartz. Most clothing is made of pliable material, which makes "dishevelment" very tricky to spot.

Yet you feel his best course of action would be to go through with a murder that would get him HANGED after being seen by two witnesses.

But that's precisely what the ripper did do - go through with his murders (notably those of Chapman and Eddowes) despite being seen by one or more witnesses. In any case, he may have passed the point of psychological no return after he had physically manhandled Stride. Let's face it, if the killer was capable of keeping a lid on his urges, he would never have become a serial killer.

But if you see it as a minor incident that is consistent with the nature of prostitution then the numerous issues associated with it become much more apparent and produce an entirely different outcome.

I can only repeat what I've said before, CD. If you have evidence of a murder, and evidence of a physical assault on that same victim just minutes before the murder, then the chances are overwhelmingly strong that the same man was responsible for both the murder and the preceding physical assault.

All the best,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hello (again) CD.

"If someone is dragged and fighting for their life, I think it would be quite apparent by the state of their clothes."

Yup. "It looked as if she had been lain gently down." Or so the copper said.

Hmm, that's a good deal of agreement we're having. I miss disagreeing. Oh, well, at least I'm married and can always get a good row there. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

All of this agreeing is making me extremely nervous. I keep expecting to look over my shoulder and see Rod Serling as the theme to "The Twilight Zone" starts to play softly in the background.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

ah!

Hello Malcolm.

"it points towards her waiting for someone inside"

Ah! Now you're talking. Sounds like my re-enactment.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

part 3

Hello (again) CD.

"If someone is dragged and fighting for their life, I think it would be quite apparent by the state of their clothes."

Yup. "It looked as if she had been lain gently down." Or so the copper said.

Hmm, that's a good deal of agreement we're having. I miss disagreeing. Oh, well, at least I'm married and can always get a good row there. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

agreement, part 2

Hello CD.

"I think Tom is exactly right. We are not seeing any sign of a struggle here. Could her three small screams indicate surprise more than fear? And what exactly is a "small scream?" A scream by definition is loud is it not?"

Well, prepare for more shock. We agree again.

"I wonder if this was the result of a poor translation."

Yes, it could well be. Could also be the result of a hurriedly concocted story to deflect possible blame from the club.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Ben,

As to the cachous, you and I are in complete disagreement so there is no point in going over old ground. You do mention their value which is what a penny or two? Why would she attempt to hold on to them as though they were a wedding ring?

I don't know what Schwartz meant by three small screams as a scream by its very nature is loud. I assume he meant some time of sound that was not very loud which explains why no one heard it. It seems that the first screams were more from surprise than fear. A much different scenario would arise later when Liz realized her life was in danger. If she screamed, I would expect someone to hear it.

Your explanation for the unruffled dress goes by me completely as well. If someone is dragged and fighting for their life, I think it would be quite apparent by the state of their clothes. Perhaps Mr. Wescott or Mr. Cates could weigh in on this.

The BS man's punishment for ONLY throwing Liz to the ground would only be a few days in jail. Can we agree on this? Would Liz even bother to report this? Yet you feel his best course of action would be to go through with a murder that would get him HANGED after being seen by two witnesses. Sorry but that seems extremely irrational to me.

As long as you view Schwartz's story as describing a vicious attack on Liz, the only possible conclusion is that he went on to murder her. But if you see it as a minor incident that is consistent with the nature of prostitution then the numerous issues associated with it become much more apparent and produce an entirely different outcome.

c.d.

[Malcolm X]

3 small screams and she fell over, it sounds like a minor struggle to me, but might not have been a full blooded attack, The Cachous might not have been in her hand at the time, only taken out after BS walked off, but it points towards her waiting for someone inside.

unfortunately we dont know for sure, but to me, it looks like she remained inside the yard after BS walked off...probably near the door Cachous now in her hand, but maybe not earlier on

she is now so utterly vulnerable, no no, get out into the street right now and keep scanning either side just in case he comes back, you dont have to leave, just keep an eye out for potential trouble.

she didn't and he returned, he rushed around the corner, into the yard and grabbed her throat

whatever, Liz's one fatal mistake was to remain inside that dark yard with no escape route and not enough time to fend off a sudden attack.

this has the hallmarks of a vindictive killer, and the words ``no i wont go with you, i'm waiting for someone inside``, this killer has chalk in his pocket and it's destined for these gates, but poor LIZ has screwed up his plans, he's thus pretty pissed off and all he wants to do now is simply kill her.

no chalk on Dutfields ?.... there's no point now because he cant mutilate her, so he may as well save the message for later on, because this message has a far greater impact with regards to a foul mutilation, than it does to a normal murder..... our Jack loves the media and he wants this savage mutilator to be seen as a Jew, so therefore he's pretty annoyed that LIZ wouldn't walk up the road with him, like Eddowes did.

[Ben]

HI CD,

The fact that the cachous were retained is consistent with preparedness for attack. The items were small enough for Stride to clench in her fist as she tried to fend to her attacker, whilst being valuable enough to hold onto despite the gravity of the situation. The retention of the cachous is not consistent with the sudden onslaught that you appear to be envisaging. If she was taken completely by surprise, blind instinct would take over and the cachous would have been released.

This "assault" or "vicious attack" consisted solely of being thrown to the ground.

Well no, it also consisted of an attempt to pull her either into the road or into the yard, depending on which version - Swanson or Star - you choose to accept.

At this point, he is guilty of a crime that would probably put him in jail for a few days but you have him remaining on the scene threatening Liz with a knife to get her to go back into the yard. Not very smart on his part.

Infinitely better than aborting the murder altogether, leaving Stride alive as an extremely close-up witness to, and victim of, a male attacker active during the ripper's hours. Remember that Ada Wilson may also have been an early victim the ripper, whose attack did not go according to plan on that occasion. Her description of the attacker was later published in the press. I can't see a more sophisticated ripper (by late September) risking that outcome again.

As for screams, Mrs. Diemschutz and was it Morris Eagle? went out of their way to testify that they felt certain they would have heard something over the singing but they did not. No argument. No screams.

Then aren't you better off arguing that Schwartz fabricated the encounter altogether? Schwartz stated that she "screamed" three times during the initial attack by BS. Why are you only worried about no other witness hearing possible later screams when they didn't appear to hear these first three either (which you don't seem to have a problem with)?

The unruffled dress is another argument lost on me completely. Unless her dress was made of crepe paper, it is virtually impossible to detect whether or not a dress had been crumpled or not.

The BS man was almost certainly Stride's killer, and any protestations to the contrary still strike me as very unreasonable, I'm afraid.

All the best,
Ben

[c.d.]

Liz was found lying on her side was she not? If the BS man killed her and he was not Jack, what possible reason could he have for placing her in this position? You would think that he would have simply cut her throat and let her fall.

c.d.

[c.d.]

The cachous represent a smoking gun that something is amiss about Schwartz's story.

Jon

Hello Wickerman,

The cachous could also mean that Schwartz's story is essentially correct and that the BS man simply cussed her out after their encounter and went on his way.

c.d.

[c.d.]

These are not difficult to account for, in my opinion. I have done so in the past, but not everyone likes the idea. The 'placid' dress is explained as there was never a struggle. Schwartz merely describes her falling to the pavement. She obviously stood up and shook off after this. And she was not holding the cachous when BS Man pushed her down (or she fell).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom and Lynn,

First let me say that I am absolutely shocked that Lynn agrees with me. Shocked I tells ya. My first thought is that I must go back and reexamine my position. Aw, just kidding. Lynn and I are cool.

I think Tom is exactly right. We are not seeing any sign of a struggle here. Could her three small screams indicate surprise more than fear? And what exactly is a "small scream?" A scream by definition is loud is it not? I wonder if this was the result of a poor translation.

So, as I see it, Liz was not dragged by the BS man into the yard. Either she went voluntarily (the domestic argument) or was forced to do so at knife point (Ben's suggestion).

c.d.

[lynn cates]

account

Hello Tom. Yes, I am familiar with your take here. And it does account for the 2 essential variables I enumerated.

Cheers.
LC