How about this quick theory!

[lynn cates]

losing the thread

Hello Greg. I do see your point; however, "I expect she was allowed to go to the loo" is, as you point out, pure speculation.

Nor do I want to carry it too far--again, as you say.

And, although this thread does not bear Liz's name, I fear we have drifted from the spirit of this thread. Hence I must be a good boy and keep quiet.

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Thanks for the clarification. I don't see any mystery surrounding BS man's ability to coax Stride into the yard after the initial attack witnessed by Schwartz. If he was the ripper, he'd have a knife with him, which he could have used as a threat, e.g. "I'm not going to hurt you, I just want free sex, but I'll use this if you scream any more". We don't know that she didn't continue scream after she was forced/enticed into the yard. Remember that no one other than Schwartz appeared to have heard the first screams. If nobody heard those, for whatever reason, they needn't have heard any later ones.

I'm not persuaded at all by the idea that she went into the yard willingly, with no thought of danger. Even if the BS man did attack her only for the ripper to turn up a few minutes later in the guise of a client (what beastly misfortune), she was very unlikely to be in a relaxed state for soliciting. It seems incredibly unlikely that she'd even remain in that spot after been roughed up at the hands of BS man.

As for "Pipeman", there is no evidence that he "returned to the scene" after running away in the same direction of Schwartz. He was evidently just as perturbed as Schwartz was by the spectacle, and departed the scene for the same reason.

Unless he felt the overriding need to kill someone near the club to lay a false anti-Jewish trail - which I think is just way too improbable, almost fantasy stuff, and making more out of this than there is.

Do some research into serial killers, and you'll discover that the steps taken to lay a "false trail" have often involved a lot of effort on the part of the killer, Lechmere. "Fantasy stuff" it most assuredly is not. I don't know how "overriding" the killer's need was in this case, but the suggestion that he took advantage of anti-semitic feelings in the district is most assuredly not to be dismissed. Frankly, if the killer had any intelligence at all, it would be unusual if he did not.

Regards,
Ben

[Rubyretro]

QUOTE]after several hours she would have been dehydrated from alcohol............so she either drank water in the jail or she had a drink or two before heading for Mitre Square[/QUOTE

If she craved water because she was dehydrated from alcohol, I think that she could drink from a fountain.

[GregBaron]

When was her last drink?

Hello Greg. Water? Gin, more like. We know she had gotten drunk--don't know who was buying.

She was in gaol for a few hours.

That's my point Lynn, if she was incarcerated for a few hours I expect she was allowed to go to the loo........after several hours she would have been dehydrated from alcohol............so she either drank water in the jail or she had a drink or two before heading for Mitre Square.....this is what I find intriguing....unfortunately human biology is not so cut and dry in that one may still have to 'go' without imbibing anything for hours........but in most circumstances I would expect she drank something between her jailing and her death.........again I don't want to take this too far but if she met her murderer in a bar this could alter the narrative.............pure speculation I know but.............


Greg

[Tom_Wescott]

There are more direct ways to achieve this, especially given that time was of the essence.
Don't you think his 'carvings' were credit enough, I mean.....who else?
It's not as if he was trying to say "Jack the Ripper did this". He didn't write the letters, and no credit was required with Chapman.

The STRIDE murder, because he knew peeps like you would come around and stare at the trees for want of a forest.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

.....The sign outside the Berner Street club read 'International Working Men's Educational Society' - IWMES.

Clever, though still obscure.

If my theory is correct, then one interpretation is that Jack is wanting to make sure that he is properly credited with the murder.

There are more direct ways to achieve this, especially given that time was of the essence.
Don't you think his 'carvings' were credit enough, I mean.....who else?
It's not as if he was trying to say "Jack the Ripper did this". He didn't write the letters, and no credit was required with Chapman.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

we all must go some time

Hello Jason.

"So she went for a pee while walking with a gentleman friend?"

No, for then her bladder would have been empty. I am suggesting that she was under pressure and so "plying a trade" would have been out of the question.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

when you gotta go, you gotta go

Hello Greg. Water? Gin, more like. We know she had gotten drunk--don't know who was buying.

She was in gaol for a few hours.

Cheers.
LC

[jason_c]

Hello Jason. 3 quick points.

"We know Kate was soliciting as she voluntar[il]y entered Mitre Square (a well known haunt for prostitute activity) with a stranger"

Please don't think me obtuse, but how can you be certain he was a stranger? Given that the Lawende sighting was of Kate and her assailant (or even someone colluding with her assailant), it seems to me that her body english during the conversation betrayed a familiarity with the chap not usually evinced with a stranger.

"If not soliciting she willing flirted with a stranger then went off for drunken copulation."

Petitio principii perhaps?

Did you address my concern about the pressure in Kate's bladder when she decided on "drunken copulation"?

Cheers.
LC

So she went for a pee while walking with a gentleman friend? Perhaps, but if she is a drunken female, loitering around a place of prostitution then that should set off alarm bells. She also just happens to be with a friend who wishes to kill her?

The body language of prostitutes shows more familiarity with strangers than even Lawende witnessed.

[GregBaron]

Where's the privy?

This is very interesting Lynn, I’ve never heard this discussed before. I wonder if they gave her water while in jail, if not, does that mean that she likely had a drink between her release and death? Did she perhaps have a drink with the rough sailor before making for Mitre Square? If so, you would think some barman would have been able to identify one or the other? Did the Bright’s disease make her have to ‘go’ all the time? Like I said, very interesting, and it seems to pose some questions. I’d like to hear some other’s thoughts…


Greg

[lynn cates]

water, water everywhere nor any a drop to drink

Hello Malcolm. In Kate's case, there was still 3 or 4 ounces of urine when examined. Must have been a VERY large initial volume.

Makes sense. After being in gaol for several hours, and having several drinks, what else? Of course, with the distended bladder, a "connection" would have been far from one's mind.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

I like your theory Tom and yours too Malcolm, I understand it’s speculation but you must point it out or risk merciless attack.



Lynn, I’m infinitely dense undoubtedly, but I don’t understand the significance here? Is the implication that a woman would not solicit sex because she had to go ‘pee’? I’m afraid I can’t answer such a question but also - did the autopsy mention anything about volume in the bladder?


Greg

hi thanks

it's speculation yes, but it's quite strong, unfortunately it is exactly what we were saying here years ago too and we never had that many friends back then either

when you die a full bladder empties, yes you pee yourself, not that this was noticed with regards to Liz

[Malcolm X]

Hi Malcolm,

I too believe the graffiti to be genuine, as did most of the police at the time. You may or may not be aware of a theory I hold as to what it actually said. It's a theory, mind you, and NOT something I'm convinced of, but a careful study of all the witness evidence of the graffiti can only lead one to the conclusion that there was no real consensus as to what the second word was. Because of Warren's handwritten note, we all say "Juwes' now, but others who were on the scene would beg to differ, and there are many variations. Because of this, it occurred to me years ago that perhaps people were trying to make a word out of something that was not a word in the first place, but an anagram. The sign outside the Berner Street club read 'International Working Men's Educational Society' - IWMES. When written out in cursif, these letters more than merely resemble JUWES, but not so 'spot on' that some people wouldn't see something else. If my theory is correct, then one interpretation is that Jack is wanting to make sure that he is properly credited with the murder. Also possible would be your interpretation that he is wanting to cast blame on them. We're still, of course, left with the double negative that means it could be read both ways.

Incidentally, I've often wondered if Jack didn't want to write the graffiti in Mitre Square, but heard the constable's approach and knew he had to get packing, thus grabbed the apron portion for placement elsewhere.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

hi Tom, my old friend from yonder years gone by

yes, the trouble is they wiped it off but as you say which is quite clever, it could be a reference back to Dutfields.

it would be very interesting to know exactly what the wording was on the gate, is yours all of it or was there more writing ?

if so paste the graffito underneath and see how it reads.... you're looking for something like Sarcasm or a sick joke etc.

'International Working Men's Educational Society'
The Jews (Juews) are the men that will not be blamed for nothing...'.

the Jews are the men that will be blamed for everything, but if this not a Jewish slur, why is the body on Jewish land, it therefore seems to me to be Anti-semetic.

but BS or whoever, was unable to mutilate Liz and unable to leave a message as well, it looks like he settled for a quick kill, but was unable to leave a message because the noise of the cart scared him off, just as he was getting his chalk out of his pocket.

maybe as much as 15 mins between the cart and BS being seen by Schwartz, yes indeed, i expect JTR was waiting for Pipeman/ Schwartz and anyone else not to come back, before returning, he did so but maybe the cart came instead to really screw him up, this cart would've made a hell of a noise on the cobblestones, thus heard from a long way off !!!!!

i'm not sure about this, but i'm deffo happy with the Eddowes murder refering back to Stride, to be realistic, the most likely scenario is JTR killed Liz and quickly legged it, the plan for the graffiti was a waste of time simply because he couldn't lure Liz away from Dutfields... he thus didn't need the graffiti there because he had the body instead!

he was a sick bastard so couldn't resist a mutilation that night, he was frustrated, so he did so and simply used the chalk to tie the 2 murders together.

but if he could have lured Stride away, this one hideaous mutilation would've been fine, along with the chalk and the graffiti/dress piece there.

i think BS was JTR trying to lure LIZ back up the road and around the corner, but she said ``not tonight love``, was he drunk ? i dont know

[lynn cates]

volume

Hello Greg. That is the implication.

Yes, volume of urine was given.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Can you give me a moment sir?

I like your theory Tom and yours too Malcolm, I understand it’s speculation but you must point it out or risk merciless attack.

Did you address my concern about the pressure in Kate's bladder when she decided on "drunken copulation"?

Lynn, I’m infinitely dense undoubtedly, but I don’t understand the significance here? Is the implication that a woman would not solicit sex because she had to go ‘pee’? I’m afraid I can’t answer such a question but also - did the autopsy mention anything about volume in the bladder?


Greg