Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[Fisherman]

I knew I could rely on you, David!

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

You definitely can, my dear !

[Fisherman]

You´d be amazed to learn how many killers of women are in their thirties, David. You would not, however - I take it from your last post - be amazed if one or both of Lawende and BS man got the age wrong, would you? If one man was, say 25 and the other 40? If so, maybe they were not all that alike, right?
You may also reflect on the fact that Victorian men ranged between 5 ft 2 and 5 ft 8 to an extent of some 98 per cent.

That leaves the cap, admittedly. But I think I can sit back and leave that to your own good self, can´t I?

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

All in all, from what we have, it seems the two were not one and the same. And why would they be...?

Fisherman

'Morning Fish,

Because we have two prostitutes murdered by knife that night, both of them seen, only minutes before their death, with a man about 30, rather short and wearing the same type of cap.

Enough to mislead my poor self !

Amitiés
David

[Fisherman]

C.d:

"Well then her killer calmed down might quickly."

Yes. Then again, if you kill somebody by cutting her throat in sudden, blind rage - what would you do afterwards? Pluck her up, push the dead body towards the wall with your left arm and punch her with your right? Jump on the carcass?
Rage translated into violence is normally inflicted until you have subdued your opponent totally, either by hitting them to the ground and making them surrender, by rendering them unconscious or by killing them - after that, there is little point in carrying on. You have made your point, and won the battle.
Stride was dead, C.d, and I think that such a thing would make many an enraged man sober up very quickly!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Dave:

"Fisherman, I am still waiting for how a slit throat leads us to rage."

Why? Is it not perfectly clear that people who use violence to kill often are enraged people? Do we need black eyes to prove a rage? I think not.
Rage, Dave, does not predispose any certain length of time to perform it, nor does it crave specific amounts of physical violence. Cutting the throat of Elizabeth Stride may well have been the most enraged thing her killer ever did.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

David:

"it could be a mistake, of course, but knowing what we know of witnesses descriptions, BS and Sailor Man aren't necessarily two different guys. Age, cap, both rather short, etc....

Witnesses can have different words to describe the same thing.
And I don't think BS was so classy."

Don´t tell me about witnesses, David - I know full well of the discrepancies that may surface! But in this case, I think that very much speaks against a coupling between the two. It must be kept in mind that Marshall, Smith and Schwartz ALL spoke of a respectably clad man, if we take on board the report from the Star. This calls for some interest, whichever way we look upon it. And Marshalls description is extremely close to Schwartz ditto, meaning that they may well have seen the exact same guy - a respectably clad man. Bear in mind that there is no other description of BS man´s general appearance than the one Schwartz gave to the Star! Each and every scrap we have thus points away from the shabby fellow in Edowes´company.

This said, we are still left with our mutual agreement that witnesses get things terribly wrong at times. But that equally could apply to your assertion that the two were of the same general age and height plus the cap - maybe the witnesses got THAT wrong!

All in all, from what we have, it seems the two were not one and the same. And why would they be...?

The best,
Fisherman

[harry]

I do not presuppose lies on the part of Schwartz at all,just the normal time lapse,and crime site circumstances that led to his information not being a hundred per cent true,and if posters do not know what those are by now,I'll not waste time by repeating them.
I do not neccessarily accept that it must have been two assailants,nor that BS initiated the scene at the gates,but what is obvious is that the attack in the yard is by a person who was intent on killing,and this intent is not shown in the incident between Stride and BS in Berner Street.BS had every opportunity to kill her there.
Reconstructions are usefull in some instances,but in this case it lacks the essential ingredient of intent to kill.One cannot substitute for the feelings and actions of a person who has that intent,or the actions and feelings of a victim who is subject to that intent.

[mariab]

Thank you so much, Mr Roy Cordyroy.
Roy Cordyroy wrote:
I remember when I started, and in fact it was Van Onselen who launched me, for better or worse. That's why I try to slip in a word edgewise about him.
Interesting! As it happens, I've recently been to South Africa for a few weeks, and it was truly fascinating, in every possible aspect.
The way I got launched into Ripperology is even more embarrassing, as I got aware for the first time of the social implications of the case by watching... From Hell on TV! In each of my (short) visits to London, I was already craving for a Ripper tour, but didn't feel like joining a lot of Japanese tourists. Then, in the winter of 2009, while looking up true crime sites, I came upon casebook and it was more or less love at first sight, as I was completely astonished by the richness of the sources posted here online. I started visiting the site infrequently, then following the boards, and about a year and a half later, I joined. Since then I'm afraid there hasn't been one single day where I haven't, even briefly, logged in on casebook... (With apologies for the chatty, trite report.)

Roy Cordyroy wrote:
But lets take your number 2 section and address it head on. You do realize, if one leans toward Israel Schwartz not being a bona fide witness, then Tall Man is up in smoke.
Absolutely! But the problem is, as currently things go, it's a LOT more difficult to further research Israel Schwartz (as in: finding a list of the IWMC members, lists of sweaters, and Schwartz's past in Hungary, Poland, or wherever he came from; although we're currently conducting research in the Arbeter Fraint, and I would very much hope that Sam Flynn/Gareth Williams might accept to help out researching Schwartz in Central/East Europe). On the other side, as things go, next week I can easily attempt a little search in Paris pertaining to the Okhrana activities (also in connection with detective agencies) and to look up the Paris criminal records for the Okhrana, Charles Le Grand, and even Michael Ostrog. (As for the latter I strongly suspect that Ostrog might have been mixed up with Le Grand in certain police circles, as they used practically the same con name, and were both in Paris for a while.)

[Roy Corduroy]

I'm not suggesting that Liz Stride had a pimp!

Okay, Maria and thank you for the reply.

My pimp suspicions are generated through 1) the alleged familiarity observed in the interaction between BS and Stride,

This is where I differ with some forum members, and indeed I part ways with some of the top authors, among them Evans, Tully & others who have suggested a domestic connexion. I don't see the circumstances having to point that way. Liz Stride had been interracting on the street, at night with men, for some years. The struggle, the muted screams, the little whispers about prayers, or not tonight - none of this - necessarily spells familiarity to me.

and 2) the fact that Pipeman's physical description fits with a certain pimp who involved himself in a big way into the subsequent investigation. Again, I'm not claiming I'm convinced of any theories resulting from any of this. I'm just interested in researching the people involved in the Berner Street case, including Schwartz and the veracity of his testimony

And again, I wish you the best in your research. I remember when I started, and in fact it was Van Onselen who launched me, for better or worse. That's why I try to slip in a word edgewise about him. But lets take your number 2 section and address it head on. You do realize, if one leans toward Israel Schwartz not being a bona fide witness, then Tall Man is up in smoke.

Roy

[mariab]

To Roy Cordyroy:
I'm not suggesting that Liz Stride had a pimp! My pimp suspicions are generated through 1) the alleged familiarity observed in the interaction between BS and Stride, and 2) the fact that Pipeman's physical description fits with a certain pimp who involved himself in a big way into the subsequent investigation. Again, I'm not claiming I'm convinced of any theories resulting from any of this. I'm just interested in researching the people involved in the Berner Street case, including Schwartz and the veracity of his testimony.

[Roy Corduroy]

What I meant by “pimp research“ was looking up the physical descriptions (if any are featured) in the Marlborough Street Magistrates Court, The Old Bailey, and the newspapers' reports for similar incidents as with what (allegedly?) happened with BS.

Oh, okay, Maria.

Those things that BS (Jack the Ripper) did are in the Whitechapel murder files and newspaper clippings. Because poor dear Liz Stride, who didn't have a pimp, was the victim of a serial killer. Like the other unfortunates. But whether he was a pimp, or just a pimp cadet is not really my point. He could have been a sailor. An escaped lunatic on the loose. Someone with a way out.

Roy

[mariab]

Roy Cordyroy wrote:
See Hutchinson, George.
Ben and Rubyretro's favorite suspect? I've been through some Hutchinson threads, but no Toppy reference that I can recall of, apologies.
The Fox and the Flies by Van Onselen? VERY convincing book! There is not a simple shred of evidence that Silver was even in London during the time of the Whitechapel murders. (While I must admit I fairly sympathize with Van Onselen's political views, and 500 pages? I can chew that up in 2 evenings. If inclined.)
What I meant by “pimp research“ was looking up the physical descriptions (if any are featured) in the Marlborough Street Magistrates Court, The Old Bailey, and the newspapers' reports for similar incidents as with what (allegedly?) happened with BS. If I manage to find some time, I might try doing this during the winter...possibly.
And a good evening to you, Mr Roy Cordyroy.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good evening Maria,

Toppy

See Hutchinson, George.

Pertaining to BS, I have this Polyanna idea of researching Whitechapel pimps and criminals for physical description

Well I could recommend The Fox and the Flies by Van Onselen, but isn't your required reading list already a bit heavy without piling on that 500 page whopper.

Roy

ps David, the Toppy Klatch is just waiting for you, monsieur.

[mariab]

As a newbie, I don't get the reference to a Toppy thread.
Pertaining to BS, I have this Polyanna idea of researching Whitechapel pimps and criminals for physical description.