A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[mariab]

To Tom Wescott:
Tom, I happen to believe (from experiences also in my own field) that generosity is not naiveté. I don't believe in squirelling away sources and theories, to me it comes off as cheap. I believe in being careful to always make it known when someone's the one who generated said sources and theories – which is not that hard, since Ripperology's a tiny field. Even musicology (my own field) is tiny enough to secure authorship before publication.

Tom Wescott wrote:
Because of the respect many authors and writers have for Dave, because he is an awesome guy, they have generally withheld comment about the book, and this has led some to assume it just slipped by unread. But I assure, there's a reason why it is not discussed to much.
I suspected this and got it confirmed while reading the book. And I can say, there have been totally similar experiences in my own field.
I suspect that Mr Yost's forte are articles. The Long vs Cadosche contribution sounds promising. I always wanted to read more about that theme (I think I've mostly read Vanderlinden on this so far).

Tom Wescott wrote:
My favorite line from the book reads, "The young man was middle-aged."
Hmmm, is that where the “middle-aged“ debate in several Stride threads came from? I remember Fish being very intensely involved in this debate. Perhaps Jon Guy too.

[Tom_Wescott]

Shoot. I forgot to say that what Rob meant is that you are decent enough to quote your sources in articles, not squirelling them up for an intended book. I agree with that approach (see SPE's generosity, proven so many times), and if I find something of any value in Paris (big IF), it will be immediately posted on casebook.

My thanks to Rob for that, but it's not so much generosity on my part as it is sheer stupidity and naivety.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria,

Regarding Yost, my issue with the book is that he has a certain agenda to support, and it's one that is really not supported by evidence, so in parts he manipulates the evidence to fit with his conclusion, and that doesn't set well with me. My favorite line from the book reads, "The young man was middle-aged." Because of the respect many authors and writers have for Dave, because he is an awesome guy, they have generally withheld comment about the book, and this has led some to assume it just slipped by unread. But I assure, there's a reason why it is not discussed to much.

Having said that, I did indeed find some observations made by Dave in the book to be fresh and thought-provoking, and I think with all the crap stripped out it would have made for a great journal article.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

More to Tom:
Shoot. I forgot to say that what Rob meant is that you are decent enough to quote your sources in articles, not squirelling them up for an intended book. I agree with that approach (see SPE's generosity, proven so many times), and if I find something of any value in Paris (big IF), it will be immediately posted on casebook.

[mariab]

To Tom Wescott:
Hi Tom. I didn't mean serious fight and beatings between you and Adam, just debate. To me it came like a very hilarious respite that Adam suddenly turned up and contributed with a complain to you, instead of complaining about my excessive typing and my not yet having read David Yost. (The latter I've corrected yesterday. For the former, working on it.)

OK, more about David Yost:
It didn't appear to me as strongly manipulative as some former experiences, but the info in the book is SOOO old, that I had to check thrice and was shocked each time when seeing the “2008“ publication date on the inside leaf.
A Long vs Cadosche contribution in Ripper Notes interests me, and I'll try to get hold of it. The News From Whitechapel I've heard about, possibly praised by The Grave Maurice, but I'm not the kind of reader who would enjoy getting themselves be spoonfed (manipulated?) by an author commenting on the newspaper reports, when I have access to said newspaper reports and other primary sources directly. Incidentally, this comes from my own line of work, where it's been a decade that I've been dealing more with primary sources than with “new books coming out“. I fully agree with SPE here that they're not all worth buying, and it reminds me of a Jack Nicholson line from the movie Wolf, where he plays an editor: His secretary asks him how many books on lycanthropy she should get hold for his research, and Nicholson says “One. The best.“. (Incidentally, this is a line written by Mike Nichols, who's not exactly a fool or an analphabet.)
Still, I understand The Grave Maurice's approach, since he's a collector, and of multiple copies. It might be a generational thing. For me, even if I ever get rich in later life (yeah, right), it'll always be mobility first, live light, and thank God for books' availability on the internet.
With many apologies for the long post.

[mariab]

To Sir Robert Anderson:
Yes, I've heard about the “Lippy“ scenario, also about the “Lizzie“. There are a few old casebook threads (probably also JTRForums threads) devoted to this. To be quite honest, I don't really know what to think about Schwartz nowadays. My opinion of him changes by the minute! One thing I promise: If he ever wrote any article or editorial for Der Arbeter Fraint (which is very possible in the period between 1902-1905), it will take about a year, but I swear, I'll nail him. What I wish is that we could find the Abberline reports, but dream on...

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Observer wrote:
Do you think that the wisdom of the Berner Street club members would extend to inventing a Lipski cursing gentile? Colour me gullible, but the whole Lipski cursing episode smacks of the truth to me.
Shouting “Lipski“ to each other both between Jews and between Jews and gentiles was a reality (if not a routine) in Victorian Whitechapel. Which makes it both a possibility that it might have happened as witnessed by Schwartz, or that the IWEC concocted their story based on Whitechapel routine.

A theory that someone apparently advanced on the Casebook some time ago was the possibility that what was really yelled that night was "Lippy", a reference to Stride's lower lip. (Tom mentioned this; I haven't been able to find the original discussion.) This would fit well with those that believe she was accosted by an acquaintance. Schwartz could well have misheard it as the ubiquitous "Lipski".

[Tom_Wescott]

Timings of the beats like this cannot be taken as gospel, nor were they ever anything like clockwork, and a constable would rarely admit he was too far off in his timing or away from his assigned beat, although often they would be.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

Actually fleet PC Smith likely got his time wrong there. For some reason his time starting from when the body was found 1am, but he actually didn't arrive on the scene until 1.05-1.10am, meaning he seen Stride likely at 12.40-45am. Therefore Mortimer could have acutally have heard him just before 12.45am.

Gavin Bromley did an excellent article here, that I have tried to fault but I can't.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...iths-beat.html

I think the author does a decent job of showing that PC Smith probably didn't arrive at 1am.....but this doesn't mean that PC Smith passed Stride at 12.40-12.45...he could just as easily have passed at 12.30-12.35 and for some reason unknown to us was sidetracked for 10 minutes.

It's a bit like McNaghten in that he names 3 people so it's taken as his definitive list of suspects.....when in fact he claims they were 'more likely' candidates...which is an entirely different thing. Similarly....arriving at the scene at 1.10ish doesn't mean he didn't pass by at 12.30-12.35.

But...yes...a good article.

[Tom_Wescott]

Dave Yost is a wounderful author, who wrote many books on Jack, one of which I have.

I believe this is the only solo Ripper book he has written, although he was one of three editors/contributors to The News From Whitechapel previous to this and authored a number of fascinating articles, perhaps my favorite of which is Long vs Cadosche, which appeared in Ripper Notes a full ten years ago.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Adam and Tom starting fighting about the Fanny – much later on today.
And Adam, you can't believe how relieved I am that you turned up and chose to attack someone else than me.

I wasn't aware that Adam and I are fighting or that he attacked me.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

How many times do I need to ask you for your sources and evidence for Mrs. Mortimer's own words "almost the entire time" being, in fact, a ten minute gap which just happened to conveniently squeeze in between everybody elses testimony? I have been asking repeatedly for the sources on this since before the article was even published, and i'm still yet to see any.

Read my letter to the editor in Ripperologist 114.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

So, did no one read Dave Yost's Elizabeth Stride and JtR: the Life and Death of the Reputed Third Victim (2008)? I thought that it offered more than enough new theories to keep us busy for a while.

Of course I have the book. However, most of his ideas were published almost a decade prior in Ripper Notes and Ripperologist, so that's why I didn't take it into equation. Out of respect for Dave, whom I truly do like and respect, I rarely comment on this book, but there are what appears to me to attempts by the author to manipulate the reader's thinking that borders on evidence tampering. But I digress...The book is not up to date on our thinking and knowledge of the Stride murder, so was rather out of date even before it was published. Having said that, to the discerning reader, there is still much value in the book, but I personally consider it blatantly wrong in most of its major theses.

Actually...should I reveal here that just a few weeks ago, Rob was saying to me that you're one of the few Ripperologists who quote their (own) research accurately and “wholeheartedly“ in their articles?

Is that a compliment? I don't know what that means. In any event, I'm one of Rob's biggest fans.

Stop typing for a while, dear, and read the book. Then we can talk about it.

LOL. You crack me up.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Butterworth

Hello Maria. One could try to contact him, but I presume Mr. Butterworth is quite busy. Still, I wish he could be tapped as he has studied anarchism closely and should be able to provide at least some enlightenment vis-a-vis Berner st.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Cheers, Adam, and I happen to have followed up part of said argument.
I'm not in any part of Oz, normally I'd wish I were, especially somewhere with not too gnarly waves (NOT Margaret River), but with all the powder up to one's knees in Berlin, it's fine being here. I can't wait to ride, but I have to wait until Sunday...
With apologies for another post unrelated to the thread...