A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[Observer]

That's ok Fisherman, thanks for that

Observer

[Fisherman]

Around 35, I believe. Sorry to budge in.

The best,
Fisherman

[Observer]

Hi Maria

How old was Le Grand in 1888?

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

The MO actually fits with Le Grand's subsequent attacks on prostitutes, and at the time of the Emma Smith attack he was quite young.

Le Grand was quite young at the time of Emma Smith's attack? Exactly when do you think it was that Smith was attacked?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

There's nothing to suggest that Emma Smith's death was the result of a pimp turf war, or that Le Grande was implicated in any way. According to Smith those responsible were very young. I'd suggest that they were a bunch of mindless young thugs hell bent on meting out misery on Emma Smith, for the sheer hell of it.

It was Lynn Cates who said “turf war“. I'm simply saying pimp assault. The MO actually fits with Le Grand's subsequent attacks on prostitutes, and at the time of the Emma Smith attack he was quite young.

Regarding Stride, it has been mooted on a previous occasion, that should the other murders had not occured, Strides murder would have faded into obscurity.

A very correct observation. But the other murders DID occur, ond one of them 45' minutes later, at a location pretty close to Berner Street.

[Observer]

Hi Maria

If you want to talk homicidal statistic's, looking at the available evidence, and considering what we have learned regarding the serial killer, I'd say that the series of murders commited in Whitechapel in 1888 were the work of a lone sexual deviant, with an uncontrolable impulse to destroy, and mutilate women.


There's nothing to suggest that Emma Smith's death was the result of a pimp turf war, or that Le Grande was implicated in any way. According to Smith those responsible were very young. I'd suggest that they were a bunch of mindless young thugs hell bent on meting out misery on Emma Smith, for the sheer hell of it.


Regarding Stride, it has been mooted on a previous occasion, that should the other murders had not occured, Strides murder would have faded into obscurity. Just another violent incident, in a violent East End.

Observer

[mariab]

Le Grand kept only the young and the fair; Smith was a "drab." Sounds like "turf warfare" to me.

Yes, I know. This is not a Le Grand thread, but what I briefly wanted to add is that initially I had a problem with the fact that the Ripper's victim selection was mostly old, until I read what all explicit violent phantasies (about dismemberment through bombs) this dude had for the old ladies he wrote letters to. (Not that I am in any way convinced that he was the Ripper.)

Needless to say, the death was likely inadvertent, but not the assault.

Totally similar to Annie Millwood. Seems to me like someone was learning...

Lynn, your Rocker hasn't turned up yet, but there were no flights to the US for about a week due to the extreme snow.

[lynn cates]

turf warfare

Hello Maria.

"I consider the possibility that someone like Le Grand might have been involved in the Emma Smith attack, as it very much looks like a pimp assault."

I think you are on solid ground here. Tom indicates that Le Grand kept only the young and the fair; Smith was a "drab." Sounds like "turf warfare" to me.

Needless to say, the death was likely inadvertent, but not the assault.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hi Maria
The Wess, Aarons, IWEC, WVC, Le Grande, Ochrana, BS man, Pipeman, was Scwartz telling the truth, was he a vociferous member of an anarchist movement scenario, although a nice enough story, will leave the vast majority of individuals unimpressed. I'm sure of that.

I'm pretty sure of that too, but it's not the vast majority I'm interested in, it's the Berner Street specialists who can follow and contribute at this point. This is very visible in the threads. Still, like I said, it's too early to come to any conclusions on Berner Street before a couple of years (as the required research is pretty massive).

There were some nasty pieces of work knocking about the East End of London in those days, see the muder of Emma Smith, as an example.

I consider the possibility that someone like Le Grand might have been involved in the Emma Smith attack, as it very much looks like a pimp assault.

Jack the Ripper did not have the monopoly on evil, at that time, in that area, I'm sure of that. I can envisage some drunken lout slitting Stride's throat, without the accompanying bruising you deem necessary for a "domestic". A drunken lout who Stride rubbed up the wrong way.

VERY effective drunkard, wouldn't you say? In reality the homicide statistics in the 1880s/1890s don't have much similar to show in the class of the Ripper crimes, apart from the torso murders and Elizabeth Jackson (which might even be related).

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Adam,
he he, I too noticed Tom dodging, but very possibly because he's going through casebook when busy at work and doesn't have time to notice all the posts. Still, I don't feel entitled to say anything else on the Mortimer debate before carefully reading Rip 113-115, which I'm still waiting to order.

This is correct. I have no sources at work, so can't provide them. What I DID do was refer Adam to my LTTE in Ripperologist 114 where I discuss Mortimer. He's also welcome to search and read threads here and at the forums where I did provide sources. However, Adam already has these sources and knows everything I know on the matter. He's just being difficult.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

Hi Maria

Indeed. However, the Wess, Aarons, IWEC, WVC, Le Grande, Ochrana, BS man, Pipeman, was Scwartz telling the truth, was he a vociferous member of an anarchist movement scenario, although a nice enough story, will leave the vast majority of individuals unimpressed. I'm sure of that.

I suspect that he solution to Stride's murder is a lot more mundane. There were some nasty pieces of work knocking about the East End of London in those days, see the muder of Emma Smith, as an example. Jack the Ripper did not have the monopoly on evil, at that time, in that area, I'm sure of that. I can envisage some drunken lout slitting Stride's throat, without the accompanying bruising you deem necessary for a "domestic". A drunken lout who Stride rubbed up the wrong way.

Observer

[mariab]

Observer wrote:
Stride in my opinion is not a domestic killing.
You got that right.

[Observer]

Hi

I suspect the term "domestic" is being used rather loosely in this thread. To me the term "domestic" (when used in it's criminal element) means violence meted out by one member of a household on another. In my opinion Kidney did not murder Stride, nor can I see any of her acquaintainces being involved in her murder. Stride in my opinion as not a domestic killing.

Observer

[mariab]

a theory on Berner Street

Hi Adam,
he he, I too noticed Tom dodging, but very possibly because he's going through casebook when busy at work and doesn't have time to notice all the posts. Still, I don't feel entitled to say anything else on the Mortimer debate before carefully reading Rip 113-115, which I'm still waiting to order.

Adam Went wrote:
especially Schwartz in this case, being Jewish - why would he place himself in the position of being one of the last people to see the victim alive, when anti-Semitism and suspicion of Jewish involvement in the murders was already rive, outside a Jewish club (whether he was involved with them in some way or not), if there was holes in his story? What does he possibly have to gain from it? Certainly not notoriety, a-la Matthew Packer - if anything, he seems to have dodged the spotlight in the ensuing weeks.
OK folks, I'm coming forth with my own theory on Berner Street, which, I promise, explains every single detail (but still requires tons of research).
In a nutshell, it boils down to my suspicion that it was William Wess who might have manipulated Schwartz into his testimony. This suspicion isn't new, it first originated from Tom Wescott years ago and it's shared by many (like Lynn Cates and Simon Wood), but my recent research in Paris brought forward more (circumstancial) evidence, and the research is still in its initial stage.
My contribution to a new theory is that, regardless of if BS and Pipeman existed or were a figment of Schwartz's/Wess's imagination, I have this suspicion that Wess might have thrown in Pipeman's physical description in Schwartz's testimony simply to intimidate Le Grand. This is just an idea that I have.
Tom has researched the relations between the IWEC and the WVC, and has discovered that the WVC had approached the IWEC for collaboration, apparently also for using the IWEC premises (besides using Joseph Aaron's pub on Mile End Road). We need to get more info on how well Joseph Aarons, Le Grand, and William Wess knew each other, and how their conflicting agendas rub against each other. On the other side, Lynn Cates recently established that the Okhrana was in the practice of hiring local detective agencies for their anti-socialist agenda. We're about to start looking into it, pertaining to Le Grand. I have the suspicion that Le Grand (as usual) was working both sides of the street, and that the IWEC got wind of that. Hence, possibly, Schwartz and Pipeman.
Obviously, all this is still sheer conjecture and requires tons of research, but it's the most accurate, all-embracing approach to the super complex realities of Berner Street.

[Adam Went]

Hi Maria and all,

Based on the fact that Tom has just completely dodged the difficult questions about sources for his Mortimer theory - again - I think we can state with great confidence that such sources didn't exist in 1888, rather they are a figment of the imagination circa 2010. Mind you, if Tom can't provide sources, and there's anybody out there who is capable or providing a credible contemporary source which states something contradicting the "almost the entire time" quote from Mortimer in several different newspapers, i'd be interested to see it, and i'm sure others would be as well.

For what it's worth, I apply the same logic to Schwartz's testimony as I do to George Hutchinson's, but especially Schwartz in this case, being Jewish - why would he place himself in the position of being one of the last people to see the victim alive, when anti-Semitism and suspicion of Jewish involvement in the murders was already rive, outside a Jewish club (whether he was involved with them in some way or not), if there was holes in his story? What does he possibly have to gain from it? Certainly not notoriety, a-la Matthew Packer - if anything, he seems to have dodged the spotlight in the ensuing weeks. Mortimer, on the other hand, is a resident of the street and has a (somewhat) valid reason for saying why she was watching the street at that particular time.

Cheers,
Adam.