A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[sleekviper]

Hello Maria,
The problem is that these are hindsight views. If he walks up to a woman, he is not likely to know how fit the woman would be. If you put the situation with the killer, in the place of Schwartz, that is walking up to Stride at the gate, this woman could be healthy as a ox, he would not know since she is just there. As Hunter has previously pointed out, the police have been involved with the locals since August, so if a man is walking up, asking for the service, then saying changed my mind when someone appears healthy, I would think they would stand out.

[Hunter]

Hi Lynn,

Those are exellent points of observation.

In regards to the first... the eventual partial relaxation of the muscles of the hand would not necessarily be instant upon death as is evidenced by the death of some individuals with their eyes open and some with them closed. The body's natural subconscious functions would gradually shut down.

As to the second... what you suggest could be true and we must remember that it had rained previously that night... possibly distorting the dispersal of blood. But, there again, the rain had stopped approximately an hour and a half before Stride's demise. there should have been evidence of splatter at least on her face or shoulder if she was so close to the ground, but no such evidence was described.

One quick point about the knot in Stride's handkerchief/neckerchief...both medicos offered different opinions about this. In my mind, Blackwell's is untenable because cutting someone's throat while the victim is falling would be a difficult task and there would most certainly be blood splattered for some distance... even in that short instance of time, and the incision followed the edge of the neckerchief for the most part... too precise to be implimented on a moving target.

Phillips invisioned that the killer siezed Stride by the shoulders and placed her on the ground, then grabbed the knot of the neckerchief to partially raise her head and deal the fatal blow. The problem with that is, everyone only has two hands. He would have had to pull her back and down, maintain control of her in some way while reaching for his knife to inflict the cut. In that scenerio, she would have had a chance to struggle. Mud would have been all over her and she would have been more disheveled than was indicated.

In other words, if one carefully examines what forensic evidence is there, it is unlikely that Stride or Eddowes were conscious or even alive by the time the knife was used. The medicos gave the cause of death as sudden effusion of blood from the carotid artery, coupled with the severance of the windpipe. That certainly would be fatal alright, but it was largely because they could not determine evidence of asphyxiation and they had to come up with something.

The idea, instead, of sudden cardiac arrest, due to the pressure on the carotid artery appears to have not entered anyone's mind until the Mylett case uncovered that possibility. The Star, if they can be relied upon at all, claimed that Dr. Phillips reached that conclusion after the Poplar incident. We do know that Dr. Brownfield did, for not just Mylett, but possibly some of the other Whitechapel murders, although we are reminded that he was not present at any of the others. He did get into trouble with Monro and Anderson for stating such publicly as they wanted to downplay the cause of Mylett's death... but that's a whole 'nuther can of worms.

[Hunter]

One quick correction...

The debate on the Mylett case mainly stemmed from the idea that a garroting mark might be hidden by a subsequent cut. But, It opened up the avenue to other possibilities of how some of the other murders took place.

Understanding of RCA ( reflexive cardiac arrest) is of more modern origins.
I apologize for the discrepancy.

[lynn cates]

methods

Hello Hunter. I think you rightly see the 2 main scenarios are Blackwell's and Phillips's. Phillips can account for the 2 bruises but little else. In his scenario, the cachous would indeed be gone.

As I'm sure you notice, my ideas follow Blackwell closely. This includes a quick take down, roughly from behind. A choke hold, as you suggest, cannot be ruled out, but again, I don't see a problem with spray on Blackwell's scenario.

The frayed edge of the scarf seems consonant with both your view and Blackwell's.

But we can agree on this, IF Liz (and Kate) were killed with a choke hold and then cut, it is a very DIFFERENT method as compared to Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

[Garza]

I think one important clue has always been overlooked concerning how Liz Stride died...the position of the feet.

[Garza]

Hi Garza. I think you misunderstood my post. Please read again. I was essentially agreeing that the clubmen were not doing anything particularly sinister, but may have been complicit in some cover-up to save their own butts. Having said that, it's all conjecture.

I too believe Mrs. Mortimer is an important witness, but was pointing out that her impression of the man with the black bag was that he was probably a club member. This proved to be true. It has no bearing on her timing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom, think you misread my post, as I was agreeing with you.

[Garza]

And, despite Tom’s protests to the contrary, Fanny Mortimer is right up there with the very worst and most unreliable of witnesses in the Ripper case.

Cheers,
Adam.

How so Adam? Fanny claimed to see a man with a black bag walking down the street - Goldstein collaborated this when he walked into the police station. Two witnesses - two strangers actually confirming each others testimony. How many Ripper witnesses have that exactly?

On top of that she states she seen a couple that likely was the couple that James Brown seen when he came out of the chandler shop.

Pretty solid....as far as Ripper witnesses go of course.

[Tom_Wescott]

The Stride of her Feet

I think one important clue has always been overlooked concerning how Liz Stride died...the position of the feet.

Misinterpreted, but not completely overlooked. Fisherman wrote an essay around Stride's feet, but went in the wrong direction (literally) because he didn't realize that Blackwell had misstated himself. Her feet were just at the swing of the gate and would have been pointing almost towards the gate, with the soles of her shoes pointing towards the left wall of the passage.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Garza,

Adam actually published an essay in Rip that, in part, went over his feelings regarding Mortimer. I, in turn, wrote Rip a 'Letter to the Editor' that was published in the subsequent issue. Adam responded in kind. We have also discussed this a lot on the boards, so I can understand why Adam isn't too keen over going over such trodden ground. I'd recommend reading the essay and our exchange in Rip, if you can, then you'll have a pretty good idea of Adam's feelings. He and I completely disagree, which is a nice way of pointing out that Adam's wrong.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. I just realized that my last two posts to you referenced essays in Rip. I'm not doing publicity for them, although it might seem that way. I believe Fisherman's essay is actually available here under 'Dissertations'. Not sure about Adam's.

[Garza]

Misinterpreted, but not completely overlooked. Fisherman wrote an essay around Stride's feet, but went in the wrong direction (literally) because he didn't realize that Blackwell had misstated himself. Her feet were just at the swing of the gate and would have been pointing almost towards the gate, with the soles of her shoes pointing towards the left wall of the passage.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom, was not talking about where her feet were pointed, but the close proximity they were to the wall, strange considering her knees were bent.

Gary

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Garza. her feet weren't near the wall. That's where Blackwell mispoke. It's physically impossible and not supported by any other witnesses.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

Maria:

I see what you’re saying, but as it stands we have no real reason to dispute that Schwartz claimed to have seen. Despite his nationality, he’s got no known ties to the IWMEC and therefore had no reason to be involved in some sort of cover up as has been suggested previously.

And, despite Tom’s protests to the contrary, Fanny Mortimer is right up there with the very worst and most unreliable of witnesses in the Ripper case.

Cheers,
Adam.

Mortimer has something going for her that Schwartz doesn't.....Goldstein backed her up as being at the door. No one corroborates Schwartz's account.

Now she hears the measured tramp of the policeman 12.35ish....and hears the cart fella come round the corner 1ish...but doesn't hear Schwartz and associates running around chasing one another at 12.45ish.

It seems that one of them is mistaken......and due to Goldstein supporting her being at the door....then that makes Mortimer more reliable in my book.

In terms of why Schwartz would lie....it doesn't really matter unless connected to the murder. Regardless....I'm confident that a court of law would side with Mortimer rather than Schwartz.

On a related note.....I've just read a book by a chap who states that Pipe Man was traced by the police and discounted. I've half a mind to e-mail the author asking him how he knows this as well as the identity of Pipe Man.

[Garza]

Garza,


P.S. I just realized that my last two posts to you referenced essays in Rip. I'm not doing publicity for them, although it might seem that way. I believe Fisherman's essay is actually available here under 'Dissertations'. Not sure about Adam's.

Tom, not read a Rip. yet, tried google books, but its limited access and it pisses me off lol, don't like reading bits and pieces of things.

[Garza]

Now she hears the measured tramp of the policeman 12.35ish....and hears the cart fella come round the corner 1ish...but doesn't hear Schwartz and associates running around chasing one another at 12.45ish.

Actually fleet PC Smith likely got his time wrong there. For some reason his time starting from when the body was found 1am, but he actually didn't arrive on the scene until 1.05-1.10am, meaning he seen Stride likely at 12.40-45am. Therefore Mortimer could have acutally have heard him just before 12.45am.

Gavin Bromley did an excellent article here, that I have tried to fault but I can't.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-smiths-beat.html

[Tom_Wescott]

Mortimer has something going for her that Schwartz doesn't.....Goldstein backed her up as being at the door. No one corroborates Schwartz's account.

Precisely!

On a related note.....I've just read a book by a chap who states that Pipe Man was traced by the police and discounted. I've half a mind to e-mail the author asking him how he knows this as well as the identity of Pipe Man.

You mean Paul Begg? He made a mistake and overlooked the exchange between Abberline and his superiors where Pipeman was repeatedly referred to as 'alleged accomplice', which would not have been the case had his identity been known.

As for Mortimer, she was at her door from approximately 12:46 to 12:56am. She never stated to have seen a couple, but did speak to a young woman who told Mortimer she must have been standing at the corner at the time of the murder. At that time, it was not known how long Stride had laid there dead. A subsequent press interview with this woman revealed that she had been outside no later than 12:30am (if memory serves).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott