A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[Tom_Wescott]

In the same vein, It can't be said with a 100% accuracy that Stride was a Ripper victim.

That is correct, but I was merely pointing out that there's no evidence that it was a domestic homicide, and she certainly wasn't killed by Michael Kidney.

Besides the time of night, the slashed throat (with a different knife) and the fact it happened in between killings of Jtr, similarities are quite sparse.

Teej, you should know better than this because we've discussed it thoroughly. There is absolute zero reason to suppose Stride was killed with a 'different knife'. This is a mistake made by many authors because they misunderstood the evidence or interpreted it incorrectly. All we can tell from the medical evidence is that the knife blade was sharp, because that's the only wound she received. We do not know how wide or long it was because of the lack of wounds. As for the time of night, she was killed within 45 minutes of Eddowes, who was killed HOURS earlier in the night than the other women. So to take Stride out for this reason is also to remove Eddowes.

The reality is that the ONLY evidence that might point away from a Ripper killing is the lack of mutilation aside from the throat cutting. That's it. There's nothing else. And as we all know, there are a number of extremely plausible reasons for why Stride's killer (if he was Jack) chose not to mutilate her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Huh?? What has the OJ case got to do with this, I don't see your leap?

I cited the OJ Simpson case to illustrate the differences, as it's a textbook example of spousal abuse going on over a long time, with tons of evidence and people and the police knowing about the ongoing abuse (i.e., a completely different situation than Stride and Kidney), and with the evidence at the murder scene being different from Berner Street (as in overkill, which is typical for domestics).

That is the point, it wasn't the blitz attack that Jtr used, she was attacked very near a loud, busy club, which was better lit than all his other haunts, he was seen arguing, he allowed her to call out, he allowed himself to be seen. It was also the only murder South of Whitechapel Road, and it was a different knife used.

It was most certainly a blitz attack (the cachous stuck in her left hand prove this). The knife used was not different, the cut was a little bit shallower because she was cut lying on her side over a stone. And Dutfield's Yard was most definitely NOT well-lit.
As it happens, Dutfield's Yard as a location is very reminiscent of Hanbury Street (no Club, but many people coming and going at all hours, plus an escape exit gate right there by the murder scene), and I also believe that without Diemshitz's pony, like, if Diemshitz had entered alone without his carriage, Stride might have ended up disemboweled. After all, the Ripper didn't let the fact that Cadosh was walking around behind the fence all the time disturb him. (Unless the times were wrong and Cadosh got out after the murder, but I don't think so.)

tji wrote:
It can't be said with a 100% accuracy that Stride was a Ripper victim.
I fully agree with you that nothing in this world can be said with 100% accuracy.
Tracy, have you read Tom's piece Exhonarating Michael Kidney in Examiner 1? It discusses many points that might interest you, including the knife.

[tji]

Hi Maria

Stride brought charges of assault against Kidney on April 6th, 1887 and failed to turn up at the hearing (as so many abused women do). And yes, Stride and Kidney had frequent rows and arguments and regularly split and came back together, as many couples do, alcoholic or not. Still, this is NOT the OJ Simpson case! None of Stride's acquaintancies at the inquest offered any suggestions that Stride was afraid of Kidney, let alone afraid for her life. Instead of that, we have (questionable) circumstancial evidence by Dr. Barnardo that Stride and her fellow roommates at Flower and Dean were afraid of the Ripper.

Huh?? What has the OJ case got to do with this, I don't see your leap?

Just because she was scared of the Ripper doesn't mean that he killed her. I don't espouse the theory that Stride was living in fear of Kidney, in fact I think it would be more likely that she would be stood arguing with him than she would Jtr.


The evidence at the Stride murder site points NOT to a domestic, but to a slaying by someone non hesitant, non personal, and experienced in quickly incapacitating his victims followed by effective cut-throating.

That is the point, it wasn't the blitz attack that Jtr used, she was attacked very near a loud, busy club, which was better lit than all his other haunts, he was seen arguing, he allowed her to call out, he allowed himself to be seen. It was also the only murder South of Whitechapel Road, and it was a different knife used.

However this argument has been around since I started the boards and it is no closer to any solution. I just don't think you can state that all evidence points to it being a C5 killing when that isn't the case. Besides the time of night, the slashed throat (with a different knife) and the fact it happened in between killings of Jtr, similarities are quite sparse.

My apologies to C.D for going off thread.

Tj

[tji]

Hi Tom

Long time no speak - I hope you are well

In the same vein, It can't be said with a 100% accuracy that Stride was a Ripper victim.

Teej

[mariab]

No battle.
Tracy, yes, Stride brought charges of assault against Kidney on April 6th, 1887 and failed to turn up at the hearing (as so many abused women do). And yes, Stride and Kidney had frequent rows and arguments and regularly split and came back together, as many couples do, alcoholic or not. Still, this is NOT the OJ Simpson case! None of Stride's acquaintancies at the inquest offered any suggestions that Stride was afraid of Kidney, let alone afraid for her life. Instead of that, we have (questionable) circumstancial evidence by Dr. Barnardo that Stride and her fellow roommates at Flower and Dean were afraid of the Ripper.
If we look at the Stride/Kidney relationship in the social historical context of Victorian Whitechapel, it's questionable if it can be considered as anything worse than strained due to alcoholism. Please remember what Eddowes said on September 30, 1888 about receiving "a fine hinding“ at the hands of her John Kelly when getting home from jail, and I'm sure it's not news to a researcher like you that women who came forward about spousal abuse at the courts frequently ended up beaten and in some cases stabbed and strangled (not to death ;-)) by the defendant in front of the very magistrates. The newspapers and casebook's section Victorian Whitechapel are full of such stories.
Michael Kidney was a weak, prematurely aged, thin shouldered man (see his sketches at the inquest and in the papers) with deteriorating health, suffering from lubago and later (after Stride's death) syphilis. The evidence at the Stride murder site points NOT to a domestic, but to a slaying by someone non hesitant, non personal, and experienced in quickly incapacitating his victims followed by effective cut-throating.

[Tom_Wescott]

Also while you are obviously entitled to your opinion, you can't possibly say that she was almost certainly not a domestic. Quite a bit of info - that has been discussed - points to the fact that she may have been, that is why there is so much conjecture with Liz.

Lord knows I don't want to get in the middle of a Maria/Teej battle, but absolutely zero evidence points to Stride having been a domestic homicide.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

Hi Maria


mainly that they tend to start with more “intimate“ injury to the face, such as shiners, black eyes, etc..

We know that Kidney had indeed started with more 'intimate' injuries, we know Elizabeth brought charges of assault against him in April 1887. So he had at least one prior of assault and there are claims that they had frequent rows and arguments to the point of Liz leaving him.

Stride's slaying is too reminiscent of the other C5s to be a crime committed by anyone else by the Ripper. This is not “just my opinion“, it's based both on evidence and on probability.

Maria, I don't think you can use probability as a point of evidence!
While there was indeed similarities to the other victims, there are also differences that stand out enough to be questioned.

These have been discussed frequently and I am bringing nothing new to the table, however I don't feel comfortable that you can say that it was not a domestic and it's not just your opinion, it's evidence. This cannot be the case or we wouldn't be having this discussion! If the evidence was so clear then you wouldn't have so many people questioning it.

Tj

[mariab]

Pertaining to the “12.46 to 12.56“ time frame (see posts #845-846), it's most probable that the dot 6 might have originated from Dr. Blackwell's testimony at the inquest that Stride should have been dead between twenty to thirty minutes before he arrived at 1:16, placing Stride's time of death (according to Dr. Blackwell) between 12:46 and 12:56.

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Much appreciated.

From the Evening Star: Nov. 12, 1888


'No. 6.--Another Whitechapel woman, Elizabeth Stride, nicknamed "Hippy Lip Annie," forty years old, was murdered in Berners street, on Sunday, September 30, at about 1 a.m. Her throat was cut, but there was no slashing of the remains. The body was warm when found and the murderer had been apparently frightened away. '

There are many other papers at that time that mention this nickname.

[mariab]

Hello Tracy,
I had no idea that you were of the opinion that Stride was a domestic. I find it almost completely improbable. Obviously I didn't mean that domestics solely happen in a slow and uncoordinated fashion (although many of them indeed do!), but mainly that they tend to start with more “intimate“ injury to the face, such as shiners, black eyes, etc.. Stride's slaying is too reminiscent of the other C5s to be a crime committed by anyone else by the Ripper. This is not “just my opinion“, it's based both on evidence and on probability.

tji wrote:
Quite a bit of info - that has been discussed - points to the fact that she may have been
Such as? And are you suggesting Michael Kidney, or another partner, like Fisherman does? Fisherman believes that BS was Stride's other, “secret“ partner. I hope you won't say that BS was Michael Kidney, because the physical description doesn't match at all.

[tji]

(Despite what my friend Fisherman believes) Stride was almost certainly not a domestic, as the violence used upon her was too quick, sudden, and clean-cut.

????!!

Maria are you saying all domestic attacks have to be slow and unco-ordinated, I don't really think that is the case!

Also while you are obviously entitled to your opinion, you can't possibly say that she was almost certainly not a domestic. Quite a bit of info - that has been discussed - points to the fact that she may have been, that is why there is so much conjecture with Liz.


Tj

[mariab]

I know, Adam, I was being ironic with the “synchronized“. As I said, I believe that Ms Mortimer exaggerated the time she spent at her door. However, as many have said, her testimony is backed up by Goldstein. Actually, it's not the possibility that she only might have spent 10'minutes at her door that bothers me, it's the “12.46 to 12.56“ quote, about which I'm not even sure where it originated from. (But I'll most definitely order Rip 113-115 soon.)
And I don't necessarily buy it that PC Smith had his times completely correctly or even truthfully. He may have been slacking and covered it up.
On another matter, not unrelated, I might have a theory that would explain how Schwartz might have concocted his testimony from scratch and still have used Pipeman's physical description intentionally. But it requires tons of research, as in researching Schwartz's possible involvement with the IWEC, the WVC's interest in collaborating with the IWEC (which is documented in The Evening News), Joseph Aarons' involvement with Le Grand, and even the Okhrana's practice of hiring local detective agencies to pursue their international agenda against socialists/anarchists. Does anybody already have a clue to where my theory leads? ;-) Shall I say more?
OK, I suspect the possibility that Le Grand might have been playing both sides of the street. And that William Wess reacted to that. (And it's all sheer conjecture, until it gets researched, but it will get researched eventually.)

[Adam Went]

Maria:

Victorian era clocks of the East End were most definitely not synchronized, we've come across instances of that before. We can only presume that Mortimer was telling the time from a clock that was in her home, and who knows how accurate that would have been - whatever the case, she had no reason at all to be paying attention to exactly what minute of the day it was, which makes it all the more absurd and ridiculous to believe that she could have positively stated that she was at her door from 12.46 to 12.56.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

Thank you so much, Hunter! Really didn't have time to go through the papers tonight...

[Hunter]

From the Evening Star: Nov. 12, 1888


'No. 6.--Another Whitechapel woman, Elizabeth Stride, nicknamed "Hippy Lip Annie," forty years old, was murdered in Berners street, on Sunday, September 30, at about 1 a.m. Her throat was cut, but there was no slashing of the remains. The body was warm when found and the murderer had been apparently frightened away. '

There are many other papers at that time that mention this nickname.