A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[Garza]

Hi All. I agree with Garza to some extent, but at the same time we have to imagine that we are young Jewish men in 1888 London. We are socialists...we don't like the police and we know damn well the police are out for us. We are unpopular with our neighbors and our practices are shunned not only by Anglo society, but by traditional Jewish society. We spend our time recruiting, peddling propaganda, and practicing mild brainwashing on young men because it is required of them to denounce God and government in order to join our ranks. We believe in our cause and enjoy our way of life and don't want it to end.

POW. There's a dead gentile woman in our yard and everyone is saying Jack the Ripper.

I don't believe these men were evil, and they did what most would do, and that is run for the police. After all, they didn't know WHO was dead, or HOW and Leather Apron had not then been mentioned. But what about a little later?

What you never hear mentioned, because it's not in the two primary press reports of Fanny Mortimer's story, is that she told the police she thought the man she saw walking by with the black bag was a member of the club. Prior to William Wess and Leon Goldstein marching into Leman Street police station for Goldstein to identify himself as Mortimer's man, the man with the black bag was the number one suspect...and this suspect had been tentatively identified as a member of the IWEC.

Don't you think it would be amazing if Wess and co. were NOT in damage control mode?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Can't argue with that Tom, IWEC was the focus of all of London at that time and its the sort of club that would sizzle in the spotlight.

There were crowds outside it for a few days after the murder and a riot, probably people were shouting anti-semitic nonsense. It wouldn't surprise me that they invented a story were gentiles killed Liz in order to take the heat of them.

But I can't see the IWEC doing anything sinister in this instance, from what we know. They were not standing around for 15 mins deciding what to do when they found Liz, unless Mrs Mortimer was completely wrong with her timing - as was Goldstein, and I find Mrs Mortimer probably to be the most realiable witness in the Stride murder imo.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Observer,

And that is precisely why we know not an answer... and why I am so pleased so many have different views on things.

Best wishes and a Merry Xmas to you

Phil

[Observer]

Hello Garza,



So therefore, any murder previous to September 30th, (ones without any reference to a letter, written in blood or red ink, or any form of communication) cannot be seen to be "the work of the Ripper", as his apparent emergence as a letter writing, police baiting, loony writing in blood and eating human body parts only suddenly started AFTER the name Jack the Ripper appeared... so why in heavens name didn't "Jack" send anything into the police, newspapers etc BEFORE Sept 27th? After all, if he had killed Chapman and Nicholls, he was STILL just as mad, just as daring, just as bloodthirsty and just as cunning.
He cannot have been in control of "when" the time was right to start baiting the police via letters etc... this man is clearly out of control after having disposed of C1 and C2...

Hi Phil

In my opinion he didn't send any letters at any time. But I'll bet the individual who killed Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly, took great pride in the sobriquet bestowed on him by the press.

Observer

[Phil Carter]

Phil, every serial killer nickname is invented by the press, unless the serial killer actually gives his name. Of course Jack the Ripper is an invented name unless someone actually was called Jack the Ripper on their birth certificate, very unfortunate lol.

Hello Garza,

Nearly my point... but not quite.
Jack the Ripper, the name, the one man killer idea, came about AFTER 30th September. The attachment of a "serial killer" to the name sealed it, seemingly forever.
But that name is a mis-conglomeration.
The murderer of Emma Smith, Martha Tabram and others AFTER Mary Kelly, were effectively denounced as not being the work of "Jack the Ripper" thanks to a doctor's opinion and a policeman taking his word for it...hence, the C5.

So therefore, any murder previous to September 30th, (ones without any reference to a letter, written in blood or red ink, or any form of communication) cannot be seen to be "the work of the Ripper", as his apparent emergence as a letter writing, police baiting, loony writing in blood and eating human body parts only suddenly started AFTER the name Jack the Ripper appeared... so why in heavens name didn't "Jack" send anything into the police, newspapers etc BEFORE Sept 27th? After all, if he had killed Chapman and Nicholls, he was STILL just as mad, just as daring, just as bloodthirsty and just as cunning.
He cannot have been in control of "when" the time was right to start baiting the police via letters etc... this man is clearly out of control after having disposed of C1 and C2...

That is why I say it. If JI killed C1 and C2 as Lynn has suggested, and I am still, like Lynn, to see any decent argument against the idea (apart from "there were more murders so it cannot have been JI"...) then we have a totally different scenario.

And Jack the Ripper was an invention. In name, by the press, and in action...by the people attributing all 5 C5 to one man..hence it MUST be JTR.

Thats where Stride comes in. It could well be, for example, that Tom Westcott happens to be bang on and Le Grande as Stride's killer. Or any foreign Jew, or anarchist..in a one off "slash and dash"... remember Stride is the bony thorn in the side of anyone supporting a C5 theory... then it is simple. Murderer of C1 and C2 locked away incarcerated....Murderer of C3 a one off and he got away with it.

Then you can start with who killed Eddowes.. because that COULD be a copycat.. with an intense prolonging of the damage done to Annie Chapman and Polly Nicholls. It is unthinkable, I know. But importantly, Ripperology must think again. Right from the start.

And it starts not with Jack the Ripper. It starts with a Whitechapel murderer, one of whom could well be Jacob Isenschmid... a long time before the invention of a loony serial killer with a revolting name.

best wishes to all and

Merry Xmas

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Garza,

No ego here, because I have no suspect to drum home. I only introduce ideas and possibilities for others to eek over... which annoys the blazes out of some...but..it's Christmas, and it is the season of goodwill to all...

Merry Xmas

Phil

[Observer]

Hello Michael. The bulk of your post is correct. I am NOT implicating chaps like Wess, Eagle, et al.

"The only possible danger I see in all this is the idea that someone went rogue."

Yes. A club visitor. Someone like the chaps from the Autonomie club. A different situation that.

Would Berner defend them? No, but they would need to deflect the blame and rigidly separate themselves from their more violent brethren.

(Incidentally, you were aware that the anarchists were basically divided into 2 groups--those who espoused "propaganda by deed" and those who abhorred violence?)

Cheers.
LC

You're forgetting those who were in it for the gelt to line their own pockets, and couldn't give an Eartha for their fellow man.

Observer

[Observer]

A real detective, or LeGrand? Nope, I can't think of a one, and neither do I think there was a complete investigation of the club. Neither do I think they would completely cooperate, but not because of anything evil; just because the establishment was a bad thing in their eyes. Again, I'm sure the authorities knew exactly what was going on in the club.

Cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike

I'd agree, and take it one step further. If an anarchist, or anyone connected to the anarchist movement had commited any of the murders then Special Branch would sooner or later have gotten wind of this fact. They had their informants everywhere, for everyone has a price, especially those poor unfortunates who found themselves at the butt end of society.

Observer

[mariab]

Tom,
thanks so much for the insider information. I swear I'll look up the reports and other stuff in The Ultimate at some point soon.
And I swear I'll stay up for most of tonight to work on my proposal. What a drag...

[Tom_Wescott]

Pipeman - The Uncensored Facts

Hi Maria. It was Begg's 'The Facts' where he hypothesized that Pipeman's identity might have been known to the police. He came to this notion because of the seeming lack of interest the police showed in identifying Pipeman - he wasn't discussed much in the reports and was excluded from police circulars that went around to the various stations and included descriptions of everyone BUT Pipeman. Because of their lack of enthusiasm in identifying Pipeman, Begg thought it likely this was because they already knew his identity. However, he overlooked the Swanson report and the ensuing memo exchange with Abberline where Pipeman was repeatedly referred to as "alleged accomplice" and other language which made it clear his identity was not known.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[sleekviper]

Wow, step away for awhile and the thread takes off. This is great, a combination of ideas that do not have to match, but each one is a viable way in which events may have taken place.

[mariab]

The Victorian anarchists/socialists most definitely were NOT the bad guys in the equation. If they did try to cover up the Stride murder is a whole another question. And who would blame them if they did?
What I wanted to ask Tom Wescott (if he's still available at work) is the following:
I've heard that in the A-Z or in Paul Begg's The facts there's an erroneous claim that Pipeman was supposed to have been interrogated by the police in early October 1888. Is this completely erroneous? What about what I've picked up (in some thread) about some police reports allegedly mentioning Pipeman? The quote might have come from Perry Mason, so it' s not exactly trustworthy. Or it might have come from Adam Went.

[lynn cates]

summary

Hello Tom. That summary of yours--it seems to me--coincides precisely with the situation. They were under pressure from at least 2 sides: the Orthodox Jews and the police. Moreover, rightly or wrongly, they blamed them for their woes.

Well expressed.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

evidence

Hello Garza. Thank you for the kind remarks.

As for evidence, well, yes, we must go where the evidence points us. As long as it feels a certain way, we must go that way.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

However my point remains...the members of the IWEC had all the materials for a nice quick cover up - transport, cloak of the night. Yet they chose to find a policeman. It seems like the actions of a bunch of innocent bystanders who don't know whats going on than a cover up.

Hi All. I agree with Garza to some extent, but at the same time we have to imagine that we are young Jewish men in 1888 London. We are socialists...we don't like the police and we know damn well the police are out for us. We are unpopular with our neighbors and our practices are shunned not only by Anglo society, but by traditional Jewish society. We spend our time recruiting, peddling propaganda, and practicing mild brainwashing on young men because it is required of them to denounce God and government in order to join our ranks. We believe in our cause and enjoy our way of life and don't want it to end.

POW. There's a dead gentile woman in our yard and everyone is saying Jack the Ripper.

I don't believe these men were evil, and they did what most would do, and that is run for the police. After all, they didn't know WHO was dead, or HOW and Leather Apron had not then been mentioned. But what about a little later?

What you never hear mentioned, because it's not in the two primary press reports of Fanny Mortimer's story, is that she told the police she thought the man she saw walking by with the black bag was a member of the club. Prior to William Wess and Leon Goldstein marching into Leman Street police station for Goldstein to identify himself as Mortimer's man, the man with the black bag was the number one suspect...and this suspect had been tentatively identified as a member of the IWEC.

Don't you think it would be amazing if Wess and co. were NOT in damage control mode?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Garza]

No. we must not forget these women were horribly killed. That DID happen. But "Jack the Ripper" is an invented name... long after the murders in the area started.

Phil, every serial killer nickname is invented by the press, unless the serial killer actually gives his name. Of course Jack the Ripper is an invented name unless someone actually was called Jack the Ripper on their birth certificate, very unfortunate lol.