A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[mariab]

Maria,
Honestly, you can be exhausting sometimes. If I say I cited the census in my Le Grand article, it's because I wrote the damn thing. I also cited the police gazette and newspaper articles.

Hi Tom, I assure you I can be exhausting a LOT. Others before you have complained before – in the exact same words.
I promise I'll go again through your article more slowly (I need to re-check the parts about the WVC-IWEC collaboration anyway), and come to the bottom of your citing the census reports and his allegedly having lied about his age. (By the by, Debs is looking into the updated version of Danish census reports, and I'm gonna try finding a book or lexicon or something listing Danish diplomats. I'll ask Fish to help.)

To tji:
It's as much a fact that Stride was a Ripper victim as it is with any of the other Ripper victims. The only reason so much doubt is over her head is because of the many mistakes made by 20th century authors. I corrected most or all of those errors in 'Exonerating Michael Kidney' in Casebook Examiner 1. I really need to have that put in the Dissertations section here on Casebook for easy reference.

Yes Tom, you should totally post your article in the casebook dissertations section, and the way I know Ripperology, it will require much more than this article, it will require until your book is done and out there to make Ripperology's collective conscience () aware of the many mistakes still stubbornly circulating pertaining to the Stride case. I think we've discussed before that in Ripperology (as in most other fields) books are respected/taken seriously/having resonance more than articles, which is a ridiculous mistake, since the good Ripperological books (by SPE/Keith Skinner/Sugden/perhaps Paley) are not exactly recent, the rest of the books coming out are either chockfull of mistakes or sheer outlandish crap, while currently the serious research is presented rather in articles (in Rip and Examiner) than in books. It'll be an ant'sview of Everest to change this perception, but I think casebook can play an important part in changing this, as so many people visit it every day.
By the way, the only serious new books coming out I'm looking forward to reading is Rob House's one about Kozminski and a joint effort by 2 great researchers (which I shouldn't yet name) about the torso murders. That's about it.

[Tom_Wescott]

Maria,

Honestly, you can be exhausting sometimes. If I say I cited the census in my Le Grand article, it's because I wrote the damn thing. I also cited the police gazette and newspaper articles.

Adam,

Do your own damn homework. LOL.

I will be honest Tom, my main reason for posting on the thread was because the impression given that it was a known fact that Stride was a Ripper victim. While I agree everyone has their opinions, nothing has been found to prove Liz was a Ripper killing.

It's as much a fact that Stride was a Ripper victim as it is with any of the other Ripper victims. The only reason so much doubt is over her head is because of the many mistakes made by 20th century authors. I corrected most or all of those errors in 'Exonerating Michael Kidney' in Casebook Examiner 1. I really need to have that put in the Dissertations section here on Casebook for easy reference.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

That is correct, but I was merely pointing out that there's no evidence that it was a domestic homicide, and she certainly wasn't killed by Michael Kidney.

Lol, back to where we left off years ago

I will be honest Tom, my main reason for posting on the thread was because the impression given that it was a known fact that Stride was a Ripper victim. While I agree everyone has their opinions, nothing has been found to prove Liz was a Ripper killing.

While I would love to discuss this - I have not kept up with all the new ideas and findings with the case, being busy researching Jacob Levy and Hyam Hyams. I did indeed read your article in the Examiner with regards to Kidney, which I admit you did raise some excellent points.

I don't believe I know enough at the moment to argue against what you say. Hopefully I can look into it more soon. (Bet you can't wait )

Teej

[mariab]

No the Ripper took a chance there was no-one about - he didn't know Cadosh was there, the attacker knew he had been seen with Liz.

The Ripper took a lot of chances, and we don't even know if it was not someone who went through a lot of “dry runs“ (exlaining the discrepancy in his killing times). Of course the Ripper heard Cadosh (most probably), he also run the risk of being caught both on Buck's Row and Mitre Square, and he was seen with Eddowes by 3 witnesses.

the actual kill may have been swift but the attack was not, this was my argument, he was seen by witnesses talking and dragging her to the floor.

You are assuming that it was BS who killed Stride, but we don't even know if BS really existed (i.e., was Schwartz's testimony thruthful?). We just know for a fact that Pipeman fits the description of someone who did exist, and who kicked his way forcefully into the investigation. It's most plausible that Pipeman killed Stride.
IF he existed, BS might have been
- Pipeman's accomplice, trying to bring Stride over to Pipeman
- a IWEC member throwing Stride out of Dutfield's Yard
- a random drunk/wannabe john bothering Stride.
In all three scenarios Pipeman needed only to establish that Schwartz was off, make a round around the corner, re-approach Stride, and escort her into Dutfield's Yard.

[tji]

Hi Maria

I cited the OJ Simpson case to illustrate the differences, as it's a textbook example of spousal abuse going on over a long time, with tons of evidence and people and the police knowing about the ongoing abuse (i.e., a completely different situation than Stride and Kidney), and with the evidence at the murder scene being different from Berner Street (as in overkill, which is typical for domestics).

Ah okay I'm with you now. However I think the fact that this is certainly a different era with different views makes OJ a bad analogy to choose. Also just because O.J was overkill doesn't mean they all are. I think the only real similarity is the fact that O.J got away with murder also.

It was most certainly a blitz attack (the cachous stuck in her left hand prove this).

No again Maria, I disagree, the actual kill may have been swift but the attack was not, this was my argument, he was seen by witnesses talking and dragging her to the floor. As for the cachous we still have the old argument - was it such a quick kill that she didn't have time to react - or was it a death clutch. People are known to have clutched things in a death grip when dying.

The knife used was not different, the cut was a little bit shallower because she was cut lying on her side over a stone. And Dutfield's Yard was most definitely NOT well-lit.

Please read what I said again, I said [I]better [/I]lit than his other haunts not brightly lit.

As it happens, Dutfield's Yard as a location is very reminiscent of Hanbury Street (no Club, but many people coming and going at all hours, plus an escape exit gate right there by the murder scene), and I also believe that without Diemshitz's pony, like, if Diemshitz had entered alone without his carriage, Stride might have ended up disemboweled. After all, the Ripper didn't let the fact that Cadosh was walking around behind the fence all the time disturb him. (Unless the times were wrong and Cadosh got out after the murder, but I don't think so.)

No the Ripper took a chance there was no-one about - he didn't know Cadosh was there, the attacker knew he had been seen with Liz.

Tj

[mariab]

No worries, Adam. I'll most certainly look it up, only it'll be weeks, because I'm still establishing a list of Rip back issues to order.

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

It is certainly not a case of "being difficult" in regards to Mortimer, this has been a question that I have repeatedly asked of Tom since before "A Matter Of Time" even was published, almost a year ago, and no concrete answer has been forthcoming. I understand that sources are not always at hand but anybody interested can refer to the article and subsequent letters for themselves and see that no such source is listed which argues with the original version of "almost the entire time".

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

Examiner 2, and it's all over it. I think Caz read it closer than you did!

I just went through the article in question (you know I'm quick as a bunny), and it's NOT a census report, it's the Police Gazette stating his age. Still, tons of newspaper reports, also from the inquiries, and a few details I had forgotten. I'll read it again more carefully soon.

[Tom_Wescott]

And which article of all, 'cause you don't say anything about census reports in Ripper Notes #25 or Examiner #2.

Examiner 2, and it's all over it. I think Caz read it closer than you did!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Just newspaper and census reports. Nothing new, it's in my article.

Wait, census reports? Under which of all names? Briscony? And which article of all, 'cause you don't say anything about census reports in Ripper Notes #25 or Examiner #2.

Lynn Cates wrote:
Sorry that you are still off your Rocker. (heh-heh) Actually, the materials I sent to Chris Scott in England took 3-4 weeks--and that was in the summer.
Off my Rocker is indeed an adequate description. 3-4 weeks?? It usually takes about 7-9 days from the US to Berlin. Did you ship it per ship?

C.D. is gonna kill us for having turned his thread into a Le Grand thread.

[Tom_Wescott]

Wow! Might I inquire where you got this? No chance to have found his (definite) real name and date of birth?

Just newspaper and census reports. Nothing new, it's in my article. You'll remember that Le Grand was the same age, height, and hair color as Pipeman, which is part of the reason why he fits so nicely into Pipeman's shoes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Rocker et al

Hello Maria. Sorry that you are still off your Rocker. (heh-heh) Actually, the materials I sent to Chris Scott in England took 3-4 weeks--and that was in the summer.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Le Grand claimed to have been 35 in 1888, but may have been as old as 40.

Wow! Might I inquire where you got this? No chance to have found his (definite) real name and date of birth?

[Tom_Wescott]

Le Grand claimed to have been 35 in 1888, but may have been as old as 40.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Le Grand was quite young at the time of Emma Smith's attack? Exactly when do you think it was that Smith was attacked?

Apologies, it was a stupid way of stating it. It almost sounded like Emma Smith were attacked a decade before the C5! Emma Smith was attacked on April 3, 1888, and I assume that Le Grand was 34-35 (according to your Ripper Notes #25 piece).