a theory on the Stride murder

[Jon Guy]

As for Jon's point.....Dr. Phillips also thought that Catherine Eddowes was killed by a different hand. 'Nuff said about him.

Hmmm..let me see...a Victorian Police Surgeon of over twenty years experience in the East End, and there`s you guys...with the greatest of respect...nuff said.

Can you please direct me to where I can find Phillips comments that Stride was killed by "a different hand."

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Adam

The cut to Stride's throat was still severe enough to sever her windpipe and cut through her carotid artery, so this is no small wound we're talking about. Everybody knows that the wounds she sustained weren't as bad as the other victims, but this could have been for any number of reasons, not least that Dutfield's Yard was the darkest of the 5 locations - so much so that the killer, like Diemschutz when he discovered the body, wouldn't have been able to see his hand in front of his face. If you can't see what you're cutting in the first place, how are you supposed to judge the depth, length, etc?

But if you know how to kill and use the same method doesnt matter whether its dark or not you know how you are going to hold the victims and know that you are going to insert the knife and then draw it across. This did not happen with Stride and i say again its different from the others. Take a look at the diffrence in the size of the neck wound in Stride and then look at the wound on Eddowes neck there is a big diffrenece in the width of the wound for a start.

As for Jon's point.....Dr. Phillips also thought that Catherine Eddowes was killed by a different hand. 'Nuff said about him.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Adam Went]

The cut to Stride's throat was still severe enough to sever her windpipe and cut through her carotid artery, so this is no small wound we're talking about. Everybody knows that the wounds she sustained weren't as bad as the other victims, but this could have been for any number of reasons, not least that Dutfield's Yard was the darkest of the 5 locations - so much so that the killer, like Diemschutz when he discovered the body, wouldn't have been able to see his hand in front of his face. If you can't see what you're cutting in the first place, how are you supposed to judge the depth, length, etc?

As for Jon's point.....Dr. Phillips also thought that Catherine Eddowes was killed by a different hand. 'Nuff said about him.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Hunter

He had a lot more to go on than that.

Phillips used the previous victim as a comparison.The Coroner asked him:

Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case? - There is very great dissimilarity between the two. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones.

Why didn`t Stride have the tell tale marks to her vertebrae ? Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly all did. Different knife? Different M.O. ? Different killer? There was a different something.

I have already stated this fact many times as have others but there are certain posters who no matter what will not accept these very relevant facts

[Jon Guy]

It should also be remembered that much of the information that the doctors used in evaluating the weapon in the other murders were from the nature and depth of the abdominal mutilations themselves; which obviously weren't there in this case so they had little to go on.

Hi Hunter

He had a lot more to go on than that.

Phillips used the previous victim as a comparison.The Coroner asked him:

Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case? - There is very great dissimilarity between the two. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones.

Why didn`t Stride have the tell tale marks to her vertebrae ? Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly all did. Different knife? Different M.O. ? Different killer? There was a different something.

[Trevor Marriott]

.

Whoever did it still knew how to dispatch someone with a sweep of the knife, instead of stabbing and dragging the point across the throat ( which was usually what happened in a domestic-i.e- Sarah Brown.

.

As you quite rightly point out the cut to her throat was totally different to the other victims, and in addition to all the other previously discussed issues regarding her murder must make a clear case to suggest she was not killed by the same hand that killed the others.

I would disagree about the killer knowing how to despatch someone. You have to remember that in those days the most accepted method of killing a person was to cut their throat. Strides cut is nothing out of the ordinary and shows no specific skill. Wheras the others were with out a doubt killed by someone who did know how to kill using a knife, killed in the same way a commando would kill when approaching a foe from behind. Covering the mouth, Sticking the knife deep into the central throat area to prevent any sound coming from the victim, then drawing it deeply across.

[Hunter]

The knife

As Tom has mentioned in regards to the knife, they only had one cut to the throat to go by. The physicians seemed to argue that a long bladed knife would be difficult to position under Elizabeth's jaw, given her perceived position itself. ( lying on her left side and a stone under her neck). The possibility of her being on her back when her throat was cut, then in agony rolling over on her side and drawing her knees wasn't considered- except perhaps where the mud was located on her clothing. But lifting her head by the scarf would have eliminated that obstacle, in my mind.

Because her death was likely not as swift as Nichols or Chapman, she may have had a little time to physically react to her mortal wound, placing her in a posture that she may not have been in when the fatal blow was struck. There is the added posibility, as Tom also pointed out on another thread, that the scene was compromised by Spooner, Johnston and/or Lamb before Blackwell arrived.

Whoever did it still knew how to dispatch someone with a sweep of the knife, instead of stabbing and dragging the point across the throat ( which was usually what happened in a domestic-i.e- Sarah Brown.

It should also be remembered that much of the information that the doctors used in evaluating the weapon in the other murders were from the nature and depth of the abdominal mutilations themselves; which obviously weren't there in this case so they had little to go on.

[Adam Went]

Hey Fleetwood,

To answer your earlier question about Pipeman, the story that he had been picked up by the police comes from the report in The Star on October 1, 1888, which carried Israel Schwartz's statement to them. To quote from the article.....

The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. The prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.

I'm not sure if there were other papers which ran the same story, but this is likely where it first appeared. Unfortunately, it doesn't specifically tell us whether it was BS Man or Pipeman, or perhaps some other mysterious bloke hanging around that we don't know about, so we can't say for sure.....most likely though, it's more mis-reporting by the press, as there doesn't seem to be anything in police records or statements about the arrest of this man.

Either that or the police did pick up someone matching the description (at 5'11, Pipeman was rather tall by 1888 standards), and the records have been lost....but either way, nothing ever came of it....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Steven Russell]

Fleetwood

Cheers,

Steve.

[Fleetwood Mac]

In post 20 I said, "I don't see any reason why... does not hold water". No sarcasm intended, Fleetwood.

Best,

Steve.

Fair enough Steve.....no problems.

[Steven Russell]

In post 20 I said, "I don't see any reason why... does not hold water". No sarcasm intended, Fleetwood.

Best,

Steve.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Dear Tom,
I am glad that you agree that shallower wounds do not necessarily mean a shorter knife.

Dear Fleetwood,
I'm afraid in post 31 you quoted me (post 20) out of context, giving the reader completely the wrong impression about my amateurish views. I am sure that this was a genuine mistake on your part but thought I should point it out.

Regards,

Steve.

Just had a look at post 31 and can't see it.....but never mind....

And as for amateurish views.....well....I'm not exactly transcending the boundaries of earthly detective work! so the last think I'd do is suggest someone knows less than me......

[Fleetwood Mac]

I don't necessarily believe him, but because I can't prove he wasn't honest, we more or less are stuck with believing him.

Yeah...though were he a member of the club....does it follow that he concealed that and so he wasn't necessarily telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Leon Goldstein, of black bag fame, couldn't speak English and was a member of the Berner Street club. William Wess accompanied him to Leman Street Police Station where he translated for him. I suspect, but cannot yet prove, that Schwartz was affiliated with the Berner Street club, and indeed had been living there the day before the murder. We know that he took a friend with him to that same station who would have been necessary for at least translating to the police why Schwartz needed to speak with them. For the actual interrogation it's possible (but not certain) that they would have used their own interpreter.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Inconclusive then......I'd be surprised if it wasn't there own....and in line with the principle of being 'stuck with it'....then surely we must accept the English version?

[Steven Russell]

Tom and Fleetwood

Dear Tom,
I am glad that you agree that shallower wounds do not necessarily mean a shorter knife.

Dear Fleetwood,
I'm afraid in post 31 you quoted me (post 20) out of context, giving the reader completely the wrong impression about my amateurish views. I am sure that this was a genuine mistake on your part but thought I should point it out.

Regards,

Steve.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Historically speaking, we have to consider his time fixed because he noticed the time on the corner clock a mere minute or two before discovering the body, and the police could have verified the accuracy of the clock. That doesn't make anything definite, but historically speaking he's more accurate in his timing than anyone else with the possible exception of Dr. Blackwell, who had a watch.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yeah.....I'll go with that....the idea that the clock time was out.....well it's unlikely that it was out only on that particular night......and were it regularly out then he would have known and adjusted his time accordingly.