a theory on the Stride murder

[Steven Russell]

Mycroft

Dear Mycroft,
I think you are almost certainly completely right.

Regards,

Steve.

[Tom_Wescott]

I read somewhere on this board that Pipe Man was identified by someone else but can't find the details? Any knowledge on this..Adam?

I'm not Adam, but I can tell you that Pipeman was never identified. This idea was first suggested in Paul Begg's 'The Facts', and would be a workable idea if not for the fact that in the memos circulated following Swanson's Oct. 19th report (which gave us his Schwartz account), Pipeman was repeatedly called the 'alleged accomplice'. Had he been identified, such speculation as to his complicity would not have been necessary.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Steven Russell]

Dear all,
I don't see any reason why the traditional explanation thet Stride and Eddowes were both Ripper victims, and that Diemschutz disturbed Jack before he was able to mutilate does not hold water. No doubt Liz was just as keen to find a sechluded spot in which to conduct business as her colleagues, and would have regarded Dutfield's Yard as a suitable venue.

It was so dark that Diemschutz had to light a match to identify that what he saw was a woman, and dark enough even then for him to run into the club to check that the body was not his wife. Ample time for a well concealed Jack to escape. Had this not happened, we may speculate that Jack would have had time to further defile Stride's remains and fully indulge his sick fantasies. As it was, his ultimate purpose, which was the mutilation rather than the killing itself, remained unfulfilled and he was compelled in his state of high excitement to seek another victim: our poor fire-engine impersonator.

I believe that had Diemschutz arrived ten or fifteen minutes later, then Catharine Eddowes would have made it home to face a "damned fine hiding" (which is bad enough) rather than the appalling fate which actually befell her.

If we accept this argument, then the view that it is highly unlikely for two killers to be on the prowl in close proximity on the same night is irrelevant.

Anyway, for what they are worth, these are my views on the candidacy of Elizabeth Stride as a genuine JTR victim, although I must admit, the possibility of a different knike having been used is a serious stumbling block.

On the flipside of the coin, coincidences do occur more frequently in life than we might imagine. Let us imagine a wholly fictional profile of our killer had been produced at the time which described him as:

Middle-aged
Tall
Thin
Possessing a thick moustache
Present in London at the time
Of some means
Harbouring a hatred of prostitutes, possibly having been married to one
Some surgical skill or training
A way to engage women in conversation due to an interest in cosmetics
Has been suspected of having been JTR at the time or shortly afterwards

We would all scream, "Tumblety!" would we not? But how about Stephenson? He fits our imaginary profile equallly well.

My point is that both men fit the description equally well and yet were definitely NOT one and the same. This is a coincidence and I doubt very much if either was Jack the Ripper.

Just a few rambling thoughts,

Steve.

[curious4]

Yes, of course, but speculation is half the fun! It is possible that she wasn´t as drunk as she pretended and wanted a safe (and presumably warm) place to wait and knew from previous experience that she would be released when she seemed able to take care of herself.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Fleetwood Mac!

I've been thinking about the same thing.

But I think, that he picked his victims by random!

All the best
Jukka

[Fleetwood Mac]

I was very interested in your theory (that Stride was a diversion) and am also of the opinion that the murders were planned. The fact that Catherine Eddowes was so keen to know the time when she left prison and walked in another direction than you would expect points to the fact that she had planned to meet someone (I think). Also think she may have tried to boost her confidence with drink beforehand.

No evidence, of course, but the murderer does seem to be extremely arrogant and unafraid.

I'd suggest that JTR simply knew prostitutes' patches and knew quiet spots nearby that suited his purposes. In other words.....he knew where to go to get what he wanted because he knew the area.

And....as said....I'll go with the theory that he'd chosen the location in advance and he waited for a prostitute to come along who was willing to go into a dark corner with him.

I really don't see a massive mystery in this at all.

To say Eddowes was meeting someone....it's possible of course.....but not likely since she'd been locked up for a while and couldn't determine the time when she was released. Too much speculation for my liking to be of much use.

The simplest answer is probably the one......she went to pick up a client...dawdling on the way for whatever reason....or speaking with other clients beforehand.....JTR knows mitre square.....knows it's a decent spot for him....so he's heading into the area too....he spots her....sizes the situation up and does his thing.

[Fleetwood Mac]

JTR didn`t need to be seen smoking a pipe, he would merely only have to offer them a light or some baccy.

In the case of McKenzie, she didn`t have any matches on her so I am assuming that she approached her killer for a light, or was offered baccy and a light by her killer.

In the case of Stride, Pipeman was said to have followed Schwartz, taking himself out of the equation.

Hi Jon....

Yes that's a possibility.

In terms of Pipe Man following Schwartz....I was reading Schwartz's testimony the other night but can't find it again...was it the press who stated this or Schwartz? I thought I read from Schwartz's testimony that Schwartz couldn't say whether or not Pipe Man was following him?

Another thought....I was thinking of location......

It's generally agreed that JTR knew the area/streets....assuming this is the case.....then I'd say it's more likely than not that he would have chosen the location beforehand.....which would have afforded him the capacity to weigh up the risks in order to choose a spot he felt minimised the risk....as opposed to wander the streets before choosing a woman and hope for the best with the location.

I suppose just as a gay man chooses a cruising area or a club....or a straight man chooses a dogging site or a club....a murderer would be sensible in sorting out the location that afforded him opportunities and minimised the risk of being caught first and foremost.

I wouldn't go as far as to say he was waiting in dark squares hoping a woman would wander in on her own....seems he could have been waiting forever.....but it seems reasonable that he chose the location and waited around in doorways and the like before propositioning a woman when she came along. I don't see him trawling pubs....at best I see him as a having a couple of pints to kill a bit of time in between skulking around and to calm the nerves a bit.

And this could explain why he chose to kill Stride after her altercation with another man....with the risk of increased attention that that entails......the explanation being that he had already made his decision to kill in that yard in the preceeding hours.

[curious4]

Stride murder

I was very interested in your theory (that Stride was a diversion) and am also of the opinion that the murders were planned. The fact that Catherine Eddowes was so keen to know the time when she left prison and walked in another direction than you would expect points to the fact that she had planned to meet someone (I think). Also think she may have tried to boost her confidence with drink beforehand.

No evidence, of course, but the murderer does seem to be extremely arrogant and unafraid.

[Jon Guy]

JTR didn`t need to be seen smoking a pipe, he would merely only have to offer them a light or some baccy.

In the case of McKenzie, she didn`t have any matches on her so I am assuming that she approached her killer for a light, or was offered baccy and a light by her killer.

In the case of Stride, Pipeman was said to have followed Schwartz, taking himself out of the equation.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM

An interesting suggestion when we consider that the Police found a pipe filled with baccy underneath the body of Alice McKenzie.

But then someone would have to explain how JTR wasn't seen smoking a pipe with one of the victims? Could be that we assume he had to sweet talk her into the corner.....when of course it could have been as rapid as....."ello luv....business? go on then....down here? aye"....what's that 1/2 minutes to emerge from a doorway and get into the dark spot.

[Mycroft]

In my theory, JtR isn't so organized and cunning, he is an opportunist. I believe that he had four or five regular routes that he would walk at night compulsivley, out of habit, locked in mental turmoil, that prevented him sleeping.Whilst on these forced marches he would observe the behaviour of the prostitutes and his disgust and hatred of them would increase. I imagine that he did these walks every night and just occassionally, when his loathing was on a high and the opportunity arose, he killed. I imagine that he had many failed attempts, where just at the last moment ,something happened that put him off. I believe Liz Stride was a JtR victim, but was not killed as a diversion. I think that he accidentally ran into the "Lipski" scene and observed it from a distance. When the coast was clear, he then moved in on her. I agree with the "normal" answer, that the only reason she wasn't mutilated more, is that he was disturbed or felt threatened and worried about being spotted or possibly, that while he was doing his "work", he suddenly just for a moment snapped out of his killer mode and had to leave.Just my thoughts anyway.

[Jon Guy]

And smoking a pipe could have helped to put the victims at ease......considering that in our minds we associate smoking with relaxing and resting.

Hi FM

An interesting suggestion when we consider that the Police found a pipe filled with baccy underneath the body of Alice McKenzie.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'd imagine that JTR would have spent a bit of time suverying the scene....how many people were around.....was there a dark place nearby...possibly even considering how he'd get away assuming he knew the streets. Based on the very fact that he needed somewhere dark and quiet....and assuming that he wasn't overly keen on the noose.....it seems to me that his major considerations would have been a place with reduced risk of capture and an escape route......being seen beforehand would have been down the list of his considerations as that simply wouldn't have been enough to get a conviction. Could fit Pipe Man in the doorway smoking a pipe weighing up the options. Could Pipe Man have been in the doorway before BS man arrived? I can't remember Schwartz's testimony so not sure on whether or not Pipe Man was seen turning a corner....or was simply seen in the doorway. Pipe Man could have been sizing up Stride before BS Man came on the scene.

And smoking a pipe could have helped to put the victims at ease......considering that in our minds we associate smoking with relaxing and resting.

I suppose it all rests in large part on whether or not we believe Schwartz was there.

a) The idea that Schwartz invented Pipe Man to ward of accusations of cowardice? were this a consideration the best bet would have been to not have come forward at all.

b) Schwartz wasn't actually there? Possibly....could have been a fantasist....

c) Schwartz did see BS Man and Stride......but invented Pipe Man in order to crow bar 'Lipski' into the scene in an attempt to divert attention from a Jewish suspect. Without any good reason beyond being Jewish.....it seems unlikely to me.

I read somewhere on this board that Pipe Man was identified by someone else but can't find the details? Any knowledge on this..Adam?

Just to add a thought.....at the outbreak of WW1 the minimum height for enlisting soldiers was 5'3.....it was raised to 5'6 after a couple of months as more people enlisted than was expected.....the army reverted to 5'3 when conscription was introduced. So the average height 1914-1918 was somewhere around 5'3-5'6. 20 years earlier I'd take an inch off and say the average height would have been around 5'4. If we say the average height today is 5'9.....then in today's terms.....in terms of height differentials between people.....Pipe Man would have been 6'4ish in today's terms (where we accept Schwarz's statement). Now I'm weighing this up and thinking could I mistake the height of such a tall man by a few inches?

But......here's the thing for me.....if Schwarz was 5'11 then I feel his estimate would have been decent enough.......as he had the evidence and experience of his body that he'd been carrying around for years to use as a benchmark. If Schwarz was 5'3 however.....then I feel there is more of a chance that he could have had his estimations out.....on the basis that 5'7 and 5'11 would both have seemed tall and I'm not so sure someone 5'3 could reliably spot the difference between 5'9 and 5'11 say.

Is there anyone particularly short on the board who could weigh in here.

I'm 5'9 and I would struggle to tell the difference between 6'2 and 6'4.....to me they're both tall....and I'd bet my house that my estimation would be out. I mean.....what would I use as a benchmark? All I know is.....they're tall....and it's not like Schwartz was stood right up next to them and produced a tape measure.

[Jon Guy]

So instead of being "interrupted" in the Stride killing, maybe it instead went EXACTLY as he planned it....as a diversion.

Hello all

A planned, diversion murder does not really stand up as a possibility when we consider that whomever killed Stride on Met territory then killed Eddowes on City police territory ? The City police were not going to leave their posts and go running down to Berner St. In fact, once the news reached the City policemen on their beats it would only have made them more vigilante in their duties.

Coppers like P.C. Smith were quietly walking their beats until the word went up, and then the whole of Whitechapel was crawling with blue bottles.

[Adam Went]

IMO, Fleetwood Mac is right on the money. The murder of Liz Stride smacks of opportunistic rather than planned. In the cases of Chapman, Eddowes AND Kelly, we have witnesses stating they saw the victim talking to a man minutes before they were killed - we even have this in the case of Stride to a point. But when Israel Schwartz saw her, she was by herself, and approached by a drunken man who got violent with her in the middle of public view, the exact opposite to how Jack approached his victims. This is why Pipeman is such a good suspect, because he's the one standing there watching all of this, and could well have sensed the opportunity to approach a shaken woman just after she had been attacked, and then led her into the passageway.....

I do believe that Liz was a victim of JTR (not least because it makes much more sense than saying that there was 2 killers in the same area at the same time killing in the same way), but there is only a limit to what he could plan, because he couldn't be sure whether there would be a suitable opportunity at a certain location at a certain time.....

Not to mention that had the murder been planned, he would have chosen a much more discreet place than the passageway next to an active club. Still, an interesting suggestion....

Cheers,
Adam.