a theory on the Stride murder

[chubbs]

Hello all

A planned, diversion murder does not really stand up as a possibility when we consider that whomever killed Stride on Met territory then killed Eddowes on City police territory ? The City police were not going to leave their posts and go running down to Berner St. In fact, once the news reached the City policemen on their beats it would only have made them more vigilante in their duties.

Coppers like P.C. Smith were quietly walking their beats until the word went up, and then the whole of Whitechapel was crawling with blue bottles.

(I know I'm replying to a very old post) - This dismissal of the theory that the murder of Stride may have been a diversionary tactic relies on the notion that JtR knew the boundaries between the different policing areas in that part of London. But, for example, as far as we know, William Bury had only been in the East End for 12 months (and he didn't live in Whitechapel or The City), so he (for example) may not have been at all clued up on the boundaries between the Met & City Police forces.
I think that Liz Stride's murder being used by JtR as a decoy should not be dismissed as a possibility. JtR seems to have been a slimy character who may have thought in that way.

Homicidius Interruptus is probably more likely though.

[Tom_Wescott]

Caz is correct. Although a good argument could be made that Jack went out with the intention of killing two women that night, the Ripper letters in no way indicate this.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jdombrowski89]

JTR didn`t need to be seen smoking a pipe, he would merely only have to offer them a light or some baccy.

In the case of McKenzie, she didn`t have any matches on her so I am assuming that she approached her killer for a light, or was offered baccy and a light by her killer.

In the case of Stride, Pipeman was said to have followed Schwartz, taking himself out of the equation.

Or "The Pipeman" didn't have nothing to do with the man attacking Stride. He could have been a "non-Jew". Someone shouts an insult to Schwartz, and he places his attention on him. You've also got to take into account the number of riots,etc, the area had seen because some of the public THOUGHT that the Jews were responsible. They had become a scapegoat for the Whitechapel murders, and in this instance I doubt it'd be far fetched to suggest that "if" there was a pipeman, he was reacting to a racial slur towards Jew.

And if the Pipeman did go after Schwartz, it would have given enough time for the individual who threw Stride down, for him to take her into the yard.

Regards,
Justin

[Diddles]

However, we don't know if the Ripper really planned on killing two victims on the night of the double event, since that bit of 'fact' is based on the highly dubious letters. [Diddles]

I'd love either of you to tell me exactly where the author of Dear Boss predicts two murders in one night, or says anything about planning a double event. (Caz)


Hi Caz!

Personally I wasn't refering to the Dear Boss letter; but letters (or postcards) in general. Yes, the Saucy Jack postcard was presumably written after the murders, but before news of the murders had hit the papers. But you're right; there's no mention of a double-event plan.

[caz]

See, this is precisely how myths are born, accepted and repeated:

-do we believe in the Dear Boss letter, supposedly predicting a Double Event (see Thread) ? [Rubyretro]

However, we don't know if the Ripper really planned on killing two victims on the night of the double event, since that bit of 'fact' is based on the highly dubious letters. [Diddles]

I'd love either of you to tell me exactly where the author of Dear Boss predicts two murders in one night, or says anything about planning a double event.

The postcard was written in the wake of that night's events.

What's the point in expressing an opinion on the provenance of the letters if you can't even absorb the content and timing of these two simple examples?

Love,

Caz
X

[Rubyretro]

Hi Corey, I think that chalk graffiti lasted quite a long time, unless it was deliberately washed off (there is a discussion on these threads debating the question somewhere).

'fresh graffiti' could mean anything over the last couple of days.

The graffiti was actually quite small as I understand it, and could be overlooked in the dark -so I'm not worried that it wasn't noticed earlier by someone just ducking his head into the doorway.

But I still think that your idea is a good one...we'll never know the truth about that, and I'm open to any of the guesses.

[corey123]

Hello Leslie,

Remember that PC Long had passed that doorway at 2:20 and didn't see any apron peice, however, he didn't notice whether there was writing on the wall either. Then at 2:55 he found the bloody apron peice and noticed the words. However, it is worth noting , as they observed, that many passed that wall every day and the words looked as if they were freshly written.

If they were written previously, they would have been rubbed away.

Detective Constable Halse declared that the words appeared to be written recently, however, Donald Swanson refered to them in a memo as Blurred.

Yours truly

[Rubyretro]

.

I also think the Gouston Street Grafitto was ment for those gates.

[/QUOTE]

That's an interesting idea, Corey..it very well be.

I don't necessarily think that he took the time to write the GSG after Eddowe's murder, but either wrote it earlier, or knew it was there and chose to leave the apron piece under it...but you might be right..

[corey123]

Hello All,

My opinion on this matter has always been that Eddowes wouldn't have been murdered if not for the failure with Stride. I beleive he intened to kill Elizabeth in Dutfields Yar and then mutilate her. I also think the Gouston Street Grafitto was ment for those gates.

[Diddles]

Regarding the OP: There were two police men patroling the area surrounding Mitre Square, which gave the Ripper a very small window in executing the Eddowes murder, regardless of the Stride murder.
But it's still an interesting theory; The Ripper being set on killing two prostitutes that night and therefore chosing less mutilation on Stride. However, we don't know if the Ripper really planned on killing two victims on the night of the double event, since that bit of 'fact' is based on the highly dubious letters.

[Rubyretro]

I've just reread this interesting Post by Pontius, and would like to go back to the first premise of whether Jtr always planned to kill two Prostitutes that night, to divert attention, and whether he was cool and calculating or an opportunist, and whether he planned the venues or not.

I see that all discussions of Stride's murder degenerate into arguments on whether she even WAS a Ripper victim or not -but we can always just consider the hypothetical idea that she was murdered by JtR, and for the sake of debate consider the question.

I really think that truths can be muliple -there often isn't often one 'black or white' solution -so Jack can be cool, cunning and plan, yet an opportunist at the same time. That is to say that he could plan the venues, but if the opportunity wasn't there, he could just move onto another venue that he'd also 'planned'.

I've always thought that he chose the Club as his target site -yet, although I'm satisfied that Dutfield's Yard was a quiet, dark
spot to kill in -a) he couldn't guarantee that he'd find a prostitute there, and b) the yard was so very dark that it would not allow him free reign with mutilations c) although it was private enough to easily slit someone's throat unseen, it wasn't private enough to be sure that he wouldn't be interrupted.

So (from the opportunist angle) -was Dutfield's his first choice anyway ?..or did he just move on there from another, more preferential site, because the opportunity didn't present itself at his first choice? I was very interested to read Nathan Shine's patently fabricated account of witnessing the murders, for one reason (apart from the 'anti semitic gangs' quote), bacause he said that he was coming from yet another Club meeting in Commercial Street..could JtR simply have come from there ? What Club would that be, and what was the address ?

Next -do we believe in the Dear Boss letter, supposedly predicting a Double Event (see Thread) ?

Believing in the letter, or not, do we believe that the Double Event and The Autumn Double, at this exact time of year, have any significance at all -beyond a journalist making the link in hindsight ? Could this be part of Jack's plan ?

So, DID JtR plan to kill two prostitutes that night, in the proximity of Jewish clubs, and always know that Mitre Square would be quiet enough, and lit enough, for mutilation and that he would have a certainty of finding a prostitute (at St Botophs) willing to go there ? Was Diemshitz arriving a mere extra fillip -but not an interference with his plan ?

Was he very much something to do with BSM and Pipeman -but not either of them ?

Did he go to Dutfield's with BSM and Pipeman , but have no intention of killing there (Mitre Square always being the target-and a rdv with kate possibly (or not) being planned) -and Liz just being opportunist ?

?????...??...?

[Stewart P Evans]

Speculative

Just love these circular speculative debates. Come back Red Demon, all is forgiven.

[Rubyretro]

I'm 5'9 and I would struggle to tell the difference between 6'2 and 6'4.....to me they're both tall....and I'd bet my house that my estimation would be out. I mean.....what would I use as a benchmark? All I know is.....they're tall....and it's not like Schwartz was stood right up next to them and produced a tape measure.[/QUOTE]

It is incredibly difficult to give any sort of accurate description of someone
whom you have not deliberately memorised :
my stepdaughters became mixed up in a murder enquiry in Poland, and had to give a detailed description of a couple of guys with whom they had been drinking in a bar, and who had then walked them home...it turned out out that the resulting 'robot portraits' looked nothing like the guys at all (one of them turned out to have a whispy blond moustache that they hadn't noticed at all in dim lighting).
I once falsly accused a guy of shoplifting in my shop...mistaking for another bloke who turned out to be at least ten years older..
Height looks totally different at night, and can depend on whether one is slouching..but also on such things as the cut of your clothes..
I certainly wouldn't take any description as 'gospel', and it's only the murderer
who could know how accurate the description was.

[Steven Russell]

Hunter and Michael

Hunter,
You are absolutely correct.

Michael,
I don't think Douglas came into it cold either. His book predates The Facts but not Begg's earlier work The Uncensored Facts. Douglas acknowledges Rumbelow and especially Fido who he says he now considers a friend so it is more than likely that these two are his main sources.

Best wishes,

Steve.

[The Good Michael]

Hunter,

I read that book. If I remember correctly, Douglas was basing his opinion on several of the JTR books he read and the suspects mentioned in these books. I don't think he came into it all cold, and was likely swayed by The Facts and others. I'm not suggesting he's wrong, only that it wasn't exactly a fresh look. I believe he sort of says that he's kind of going off the cuff when he says what he thinks.

It's been years, so I could be misremembering.

Cheers,

Mike