a theory on the Stride murder

[Tom_Wescott]

Hmmmm.....seems to rest on Schwartz then Tom......is there one particular aspect of his statement that makes him believable to you?

I don't necessarily believe him, but because I can't prove he wasn't honest, we more or less are stuck with believing him.

Seems strange that the police would use someone unknown to them and someone who was near the crime scence at the time of the murder as an intrepretor....surely they wouldn't have been so imcompetent?

Leon Goldstein, of black bag fame, couldn't speak English and was a member of the Berner Street club. William Wess accompanied him to Leman Street Police Station where he translated for him. I suspect, but cannot yet prove, that Schwartz was affiliated with the Berner Street club, and indeed had been living there the day before the murder. We know that he took a friend with him to that same station who would have been necessary for at least translating to the police why Schwartz needed to speak with them. For the actual interrogation it's possible (but not certain) that they would have used their own interpreter.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Anyway, for what they are worth, these are my views on the candidacy of Elizabeth Stride as a genuine JTR victim, although I must admit, the possibility of a different knike having been used is a serious stumbling block.

The Stride case does not suggest a different knife any more than any of the other murders. There was one cut and not stabs, therefore it's impossible to gage the length of the blade. All we know is that it was sharp and got the job done in one quick slice. A practiced, calm hand killing a middle-aged prostitute in a dark place. I cannot say she was a victim of Jack the Ripper, but certainly the balance of probabilities suggests she was.

so could have been Diemshutz but earlier than 1am

Historically speaking, we have to consider his time fixed because he noticed the time on the corner clock a mere minute or two before discovering the body, and the police could have verified the accuracy of the clock. That doesn't make anything definite, but historically speaking he's more accurate in his timing than anyone else with the possible exception of Dr. Blackwell, who had a watch.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Mac, there doesn't appear to have been another witness, although I did create a thread some time ago about a press report in which William Wess of the Berner Street Club is interviewed and he alludes to the Schwartz story, proving that he was aware about it early on (prior to this I had suggested that Wess might have been Schwartz's interpeter). Somehow, somewhere, the account got garbled and was reported as someone had chased the supposed murderer. Obviously, if this were the case, then Schwartz would be the supposed murderer as Pipeman chased him. But I think the reporter screwed it up and what Wess said was that the supposed murderer had chased a man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hmmmm.....seems to rest on Schwartz then Tom......is there one particular aspect of his statement that makes him believable to you?

Seems strange that the police would use someone unknown to them and someone who was near the crime scence at the time of the murder as an intrepretor....surely they wouldn't have been so imcompetent?

[Steven Russell]

Hello Steven....



To me....it doesn't have to be Diemschutz.....also....I think at least one person would have got their times out...so could have been Diemshutz but earlier than 1am.



I was reading a thread the other night Steven.....which discussed this issue and I wasn't convinced it was a different knife.

But let's assume it was....

For JTR to rigidly stick to the same knife....he would have had to have had either....an emotional attachment to that knife.....an inability to carry more than one knife......only owned one knife....felt comfortable using only one particular knife.....it's not beyond the realms of possibility that none of the aforementioned afflicted JTR.....

And....I wonder.....assuming he was disturbed....did he have time to clean his knife?......was it still blood stained?....would this have influenced choosing a second knife?

I can see why a deep wound cannot be inflicted with a small knife but why not vice versa? You could scratch someone with a sword.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Mac, there doesn't appear to have been another witness, although I did create a thread some time ago about a press report in which William Wess of the Berner Street Club is interviewed and he alludes to the Schwartz story, proving that he was aware about it early on (prior to this I had suggested that Wess might have been Schwartz's interpeter). Somehow, somewhere, the account got garbled and was reported as someone had chased the supposed murderer. Obviously, if this were the case, then Schwartz would be the supposed murderer as Pipeman chased him. But I think the reporter screwed it up and what Wess said was that the supposed murderer had chased a man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm not Adam, but I can tell you that Pipeman was never identified. This idea was first suggested in Paul Begg's 'The Facts', and would be a workable idea if not for the fact that in the memos circulated following Swanson's Oct. 19th report (which gave us his Schwartz account), Pipeman was repeatedly called the 'alleged accomplice'. Had he been identified, such speculation as to his complicity would not have been necessary.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom....

Less than satisfactory choice of word on my part....worse than that I didn't remotely say that which I meant....

I meant someone else saw that same person in Berner Street....though his ID wasn't confirmed...any truth in this?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Steven....

Diemschutz disturbed Jack before he was able to mutilate does not hold water.

To me....it doesn't have to be Diemschutz.....also....I think at least one person would have got their times out...so could have been Diemshutz but earlier than 1am.

Anyway, for what they are worth, these are my views on the candidacy of Elizabeth Stride as a genuine JTR victim, although I must admit, the possibility of a different knike having been used is a serious stumbling block.

I was reading a thread the other night Steven.....which discussed this issue and I wasn't convinced it was a different knife.

But let's assume it was....

For JTR to rigidly stick to the same knife....he would have had to have had either....an emotional attachment to that knife.....an inability to carry more than one knife......only owned one knife....felt comfortable using only one particular knife.....it's not beyond the realms of possibility that none of the aforementioned afflicted JTR.....

And....I wonder.....assuming he was disturbed....did he have time to clean his knife?......was it still blood stained?....would this have influenced choosing a second knife?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Fleetwood Mac!

I've been thinking about the same thing.

But I think, that he picked his victims by random!

All the best
Jukka

Hello Jukka.....

Likely......though I was arguing that the locations were decided in advance....well more that it's a reasonable suggestion. I mean....you know the streets....surely you'd take advantage of that knowledge and reduce the risk of being caught in the act/trying to get away....as opposed to choose the woman and hope for the best with the location? I'd imagine getting his kicks and getting away without getting caught were more important to him than picking a certain type of woman.

I know people think differently.....but as a matter of instinct we weigh up the risks and opportunities before making a decision....and even the more risk seeking among us will give themselves a chance when the punishment is too much to bear. For every case where Dahmer was brazen with the police...when he didn't have much of a choice by the way....there are a lot more where he went about his business pretty quietly. I'd imagine that the rule is that serial killers do not take risks to the extent of brawling in the streets with someone they're planning on killing....though you'll always find an exception somewhere.

It would make sense from a purely pragmatic perspective too.....wander round the streets and make life hard work.....or go to a spot where you know a prostitute will be along in a short while.....and wait. Possibly even popping into the local pub for a swift pint to calm the nerves and kill a bit of time.

[Steven Russell]

Yes indeed.

Steve.

[Tom_Wescott]

Oh. LOL. If nothing else he was certainly that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Steven Russell]

Tom

A rum cove is a dodgy character.

Regards,

Steve.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Steven,

I don't know what Rum Cove means (I'm American), but thanks. Not much yet to look up about Le Grand, but wait for the next Casebook Examiner.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Steven Russell]

Tom Wescott

Dear Tom,
Thank you for you thoughts on the interesting Mr. Le Grand, whom I just looked up. A rum cove to say the least.

My "profile" was a completely imaginary construct intended to show that individuals can share several attributes and therefore that coincidences do occur. It was not in any way intended to be a serious description of the person for which we are all looking.

The reference to cosmetics is about Tumblety's Patented Pimple Destroyer. I also recall Stephenson having hawked some sort of face cream.

Again, apologies if the last part of my post made it look as if I was proposing a serious suspect. I was not. My point was to illustrate that coincidences DO and WILL occur, and we should adopt them as arguments at our peril.

Great stuff about Le. Grand, though.

Best wishes,

Steve.

[GregBaron]

Can't think like JtR....

Interesting thoughts you all but....I'd caution against trying to get into
the mind of JtR.....normal thinking doesn't apply to the antisocial personality...
...I don't think he planned locations in advance because if he did he chose
poor ones in my view....now there probably wasn't many good ones in Whitechapel at that time but........I think we must take into account the thrill realized by the possibility of being caught...there's a fine line between danger and thrill..combine that with the horror invoked by those poor souls upon discovery and the added exhiliration of making fools of the police and you have a perfect triumvirate of the super thrill........now I hope I'm not getting into his mind but I think these traits have been documented in many modern or post JtR serial killers.....We have no idea if he trolled about for hours or if he got a bit liquored up or if he worked specific locations.....all of these are certainly believable...he may have shown his nondescript face all over town on murder nights or he may have come out for the relatively quick kill...all guesswork.....something I do wonder and I haven't heard
discussed is ........was JtR a repeat customer of any of these ladies?
Wouldn't that put one at ease if "Oh yeah, I've done that bloke, he's Ok, he always pays" type of thing........... before Mr. Hyde came out and went for the jugular.....

Greg

[Tom_Wescott]

Here's my two cents on Steven's profile...

Middle-aged Le Grand (35-40)
Tall Le Grand (6ft)
Thin Le Grand (neither fat nor thin)
Possessing a thick moustache Who said this?
Present in London at the time Le Grand (present in the neighborhood of Berner Street at time of murder)
Of some means Le Grand
Harbouring a hatred of prostitutes, possibly having been married to one Le Grand (charged & convicted of numerous attacks on prostitutes, was himself a pimp, and his common law wife was a prostitute
Some surgical skill or training Le Grand (described as adept with knives & very well educated)
A way to engage women in conversation due to an interest in cosmetics Where'd this come from?
Has been suspected of having been JTR at the time or shortly afterwards Le Grand